>>26102599
The best situation for a vampire is to be the only vampire in a world that doesn't believe in vampires.

>>26102642
Well obviously, but I'm trying to create a logical world Vampire population. Any math bros in the house?

For the purposes of an RP, you should be more focused on the narrative aspects - for example, if the players are in that 40,000-person city, and you can have plot arcs and intrigue woven between those 20 vampires (plus or minus a few used as "expendable" one-note mooks), good on ya.

If you really want to follow the math, you can conclude that the U.S. as a whole CAN only support one vampire... but there's a lot more than that. Enter plot conundrum.

>>26102689
You're missing out on a lot of things.
Mass communication would drastically curb the numbers. If someone saw a vampire they could alert others easily. If someone went missing, police and other authorities would get involved. If someone sees strange folks going in and out of an otherwise abandoned building they'd call the cops.

Meanwhile in your standard fantasy world, a family could live in a house ten miles from a massive city and no one would ever know.

>>26102599
Is it just me, or did you use a much higher rate of human population growth in the town example than in the national example?

>>26102599
The problem is that you've got the town of 40,000 having a 10% annual population growth of people, while you're using a population growth of less than 1% for the country.

Vampire population is a massively complex issue, far more so than this formula would suggest, and varies depending on the specifics of the vampires.

Do the vampires need to kill their victims to feed? How often do vampires feed? What portion of victims become vampires? What is the mortality rate of vampires?

>>26102774
Well thats not really a problem given how many mystical ways Vampires can keep up a masquerade.

Hell even if you do it like Percy Jackson or teh Shadowhunters where muggles cant even SEE magic stuff there is always hypnotism or Men in Black style flashlights.

It is illogical that a country as the US can only support one vampire. If the ratio is 1 feed session every 3 days, that only equals 122 humans a year.

So with a 1% Growth a years, a population of 12.200 should be anough to support a vampire for that years.

Yet in the WOD, if the masquerade needs to be uphold, the Vampire-Human Ratio is more like 1-50.000

>>26102831
I did, because the US as a whole has a lower population growth rate that individual towns like Sunndyale (which he based on a standard budding California town)

>>26103029
Arent all those variables in the formula?

>>26103103
Yeah which is why you see I have a Quantum problem.

The formula holds up at one level, but you scale it up and it breaks down.

>>26102599
you have population of sunnydale as 385,000 thats a big budding town much bigger then the ~40,000 you said

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The formula you have, OP, is actually far more complex than you need, and you're using it a bit wrong. That formula describes how vampire populations grow and shrink and how they interact with human populations growing and shrinking. All YOU want is

>the amount of vampires any given population could support

which means you don't need the equation, you just need to know the carrying capacity, K, expressed as a ratio of vampires to humans. Then you can just multiply by the population of whatever (town, city, world) to find out how many vamps can live there.

The problem, here, is that K is utterly dependent on fictional facts. How much does a vampire need to feed? How often is feeding lethal? How often are missing persons noticed and investigated, and how effective are said investigations? Do the vampires in your setting possess any powers, such as hypnosis, that might reduce their risk of discovery?

All of that stuff is undefined, with the sole exception of the number of reported but unsolved missing persons cases. Those, we have actual statistics for. So, let's take a moment to browse the relevent data and then argue about it:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ncic/ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics-for-2011

>>26103243
That was a typo its 38500

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>>26103248
The statistics on Vampire being discovered is irrelevant to the biological capacity for them to exist. The idea is from an ecological perspective, how many Vampires can a given area hold without humans or vampires all going extinct.

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/03/why-vampires-would-have-a-popu.html

This is the possible human vampire combinations hat model yields.

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WAIT!

What if we made a city full of vampires?

>>26102599
The model only works on a small scale because it's relying on impractically large population growth driven by people moving into the town. The number of people being killed by vampires is much higher than the birth rate in the town, but it doesn't matter because people keep coming in from outside.

A comprehensive model on a national or global scale will show that no number of vampires with a high rate of feeding and conversion of victims will be sustainable in the long run.

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>>26103248

Ok, the bad news for the vampire population is this: the clearance rate for missing persons cases is actually really fucking high. In 2011, the year that site's statistics are from, they actually closed more cases than they opened. Sometimes the individual came home, sometimes the police found them, sometimes they turned up dead, but it looks like someone just VANISHING is actually very rare.

This leaves you with a few options, most of which are used in World of Darkness:
Your setting is a worse place than the real world, and disappearances are more common.
Vampires usually feed without killing, and make new vampires only rarely.
Vampires have powers and influence which allow them to alter memories, or at least police reports.

So, what it comes down to, is there's absolutely nothing to calculate with. It's all up in the air. You're just going to have to pick a ratio of vampires you're fond of (I usually roll with around 1 in 50,000, though their distribution is not uniform,) and go with it.

>>26103415
Too big a population, they'd either bleed the humans dry and starve or be wiped out by vengeful armies.

>>26103519
Not necessarily; even if you do make up numbers (conversion and feeding rates, deaths etc.) those numbers would still have to make mathematical sense.

Unless the theme is some kind of Malthusian Vampoclaypse, in which case you would still have to explain how the population got there in the first place

>>26103568
Have a human population there that lives for free in exchange for blood taxes.

>>26102774
>Meanwhile in your standard fantasy world, a family could live in a house ten miles from a massive city and no one would ever know.

That is dependent entirely on the level of suburbanization in the area and the geographical features.

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>>26103337

The statistics of vampire discovery are very much relevant, as discovery may lead to extinction.

However, if it's a question of absolute maximum population load, then it's simply a question of how many people are required to produce enough blood to support one vampire. A healthy person (estimate at half the population, the remainder are too young or too old or otherwise insufficiently robust,) can donate 6 pints a year, so it's an average of 3 pints per person per annum. How many pints does a vampire need per year? Divide that by three, and that's the minimum number of people he can live off of.

>>26103698
Discovery is flexible within the realms of the fiction, the laws of mathematics are not.

I hate to break it to you, but that formula is bullshit. Going by the estimation that a vampire kills 122 people a year, there is no way that a town of 40,000 could support 20 vampires, or even 1. We're talking over 2000 murders per year just to feed the 20 vamps. You'd end up with something like 7% of the town's residents getting murdered every year.

Detroit, one of the deadliest cities in the Western world, has a population of 700,000 and had about 400 murders last year. That's less than 0.001% of the population being murdered in a year.

>>26103679
Whole blood donation of one pint has a red cell recovery rate that averages at thirty-six days with a range of 20-59 days. Assuming each vampire needs a pint of blood a day to survive, what is the human population needed to maintain a vampire population of 40,000 and no vampire population growth?

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>>26103666

The thing is, the numbers are both fictional and interdependent. By adjusting them, you can produce any vampire-human ratio you wish. 50,000 vampires per human! They only need a drop of blood, once per 200 years.

So you can really do it in any direction. You can decide how vampires work (feeding habits, etc,) and that will give you the maximum population. Or you can decide how common you want them to be in your story, and that will dictate feeding habits. And, of course, they might have crazy vampire magic, making everything entirely at the whim of the writer.

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>>26103840

See

>>26103698
>it's an average of 3 pints per person per annum

So, 1 pint per day (which is rather a lot, significantly more than, say WoD vampires need,) means 365 pints per year, or 122 humans per vampire. So, a vampire population of 40,000 means a human population of 4,880,000. New York City, by comparison, is approximately 8,245,000. So, a large town of vampires means a large city of humans. Less if they feed less, of course.

Its very dependent on the RPG.

For example, in nwod, you don't necessarily need any vampires. They can feed off animals (and having the newest vampires be fed on by the older ones), you can't "accidentally" kill another vampire through feeding, and there's tons of ways to get blood through "magic" means (Coil of Blood, feeding off spirits, etc.). Oh and the underworld.

For owod, I don't even remember. I know infernalists can feed off fear to some degree...

so yeah. I'm partial to beastly underground vampire 'civilizations' feeding on ancient submerged flesh-creatures of titanic size.

>>26103972
Whole blood donation in America is 500 milliliters per eight weeks. That's about three liters annual.

>>26103972

Oh, also less if they go to the trouble of figuring out individual's blood recovery rates. The figures I gave used the Red Cross practice of playing it safe and giving everyone 59 days between donations; if you were a bit more ambitious about it, you could increase blood production per human by up to 38%, and shrinking the required city likewise. However, you'd begin to see some attrition, pushing it that close to the wire. You're probably better off giving people a little more than their minimum recovery time, and only shrinking the city by 20%.

Interesting. In this case, we've settled on very close to 100 humans per 1 vampire. A useful figure to keep in mind.

>>26104107

There are 2.11 pints in a liter, so 6 pints per annum. Roughly half of all people are not viable blood doners (too young, too old, unhealthy in some way,) so the average per person drops to 3 pints. Your figures are the same as mine.

>>26103983
>any humans

The issue isn't even how much blood vampires need its how many vampire can you have in one place before shit starts getting suspicious. This number is by a few factors including:
-How different are the vampires from humans? (Can they eat? Breath? Are they cold to the touch? Can they have sex? Exactly how does sunlight affect them?)
-What kind of abilities do they have? (Can they compel or dominate humans? If yes how easy is it to do and what is the scope of ability? Can they shapeshift?)
-How organized are they? (Do they have a secret society actively dedicated to vampire secrecy and preservation? eg Camarilla if not do they at least have some enforceable rules regulating behavior?)
-Is there an outside group or groups dedicated to killing and/or regulating them?

Generally the more human like, powerful and organized the vampires the more of them there will be.

>>26103698
I calculated that a Vampire would need to drain a human about every 58.4 hours (this assumes Vampires eat in the same food to mass ratio as humans) that means that they'd need a bit over 1.8 liters a day meaning about 231 humans would be needed to support one vampire with no fatalities.

>>26104201
Minimum age for blood donation with parental consent in America is 16, maximum is 75 though they can donate if older with doctor's approval. It's closer to 70% for viability, without regard to health - since I can't any statistics about health and blood donations.

>>26103781
Interesting. Than what mathematical error did he make.

>>26103983

Incidentally, in old or new world of darkness, immortality for everyone is perfectly feasible. You only need one point of vampire vitae per month to be a ghoul, and ghouls have improved healing, immunity to aging, and resistance to many diseases (cancer goes into remission as long as you have vitae in your system, for example.)

So, you create new vampires until you have a vamp/human ratio of 1/90. You establish a feeding schedule, so that each vampire is visited by 3 humans per night. Each human gets drained for two blood points (not enough to be dangerous) and receives 1 vitae in return. The humans are all ghouls, and the vampire has a net 3 blood points. Vamps spend 1 point to rise each night; the other 2 can be spent on disciplines, weird blood sex play, whatever. And as long as you have at least 12 vamps, no human needs to go to a given vamp more than once per year, so no one gets blood bonded.

Vamps get all the blood they need, humans get eternal life and health. There's really no downside. Not even population growth; you can get pregnant while you're a ghoul, but it doesn't actually grow until you stop taking vampire blood, so everyone's basically on birth control unless they make a determined choice to have kids (coming off the juice is a nasty withdrawal.) This should bring the birth rate down to a level where it's just replacing people who die in accidents and so forth.

>>26104536
Yea but I always thought Vamps enjoyed hunting.

>>26103840
Well since a human eats there body mass in food in a bit over a month and blood is 8% of body mass a vampire would need to drain a human dry every 8% of a month so that's 10 pints/ .08 months which equals 125 pints a month or assuming a human can give six pints a year that means 250 humans would be needed to support one Vampire.

>>26104536
This gives me interesting ideas for a setting...

>>26104407

Yeah, I figured the health issues would bring it down towards 50%. There are a LOT of things that will cause them to turn you down. My roommate's a very moral person, she's been trying to donate blood for years, and she's never managed to do so, for a variety of different reasons, and she's pretty damn healthy.

>>26104591
And that varies
Some can't be arsed

>>26104648
I tried once
Its how I found out I have sickle cell anemia

>>26103849
Yeah but unless you get really weird for the sake of narrative you cant have extremes like Vampires who hardy ever need to feed or the like.

>>26104368
Suspicion is irrelevant because you can make up any old bullshit to get rid of that plot factor.

But if you have a bunch of vampires and only so many humans you cant explain that unless you establish they hardly ever have to feed.

>>26104648
True, but many of the reasons why they turn you down are temporary or treatable. Plus there a far more restrictions based on disease transfer or chemical contamination than on the health of the donor. Are the vampires worried about disease transmission or drugs in their blood supply?

>>26104591
>>26104656

Some vamps enjoy hunting, some don't. Some HUMANS enjoy hunting for their food, some don't.

For the vamps that dig that, it's still an option. You just adhere to the 2 points taken, one given schema, and check their ID on your smartphone to make sure you haven't fed them vitae in the past year or so. Certain nightclubs and whatnot are openly feed-friendly, the drinks are cheap for humans but by being there you're consenting to being mesmerized and bitten.

And hell, feeding's legal. It's like sex, you need consent (and using mind powers is legally the same as using roofies.)

>>26102599
What

No, seriously, this? This whole thing you've done here? It isn't healthy.

>>26104726
My point is that regardless of what a vampires daily blood needs are you will reach the point where vampires are discovered WAY before you have more vampires than you can sustain.

>>26104766

Well, that naturally depends on how they work. In World of Darkness, yes: vampires aren't affected by diseases, but they CAN spread them, and they can be affected by and become addicted to drugs in their blood supply. Don't feed off alleyway junkies, kids! You'll wind up with a monkey on your back, giving everyone you bite Hepatitis and AIDS!

>>26104804

Math is fun. Math about silly things is extra fun.

WOD has it the ratio is 1 vampire to 100,000 mortals. Which would put the population of New York at about 80 vampires.

>>26104536
...Huh.

>>26104877
However since pop was rule of thumb doubled in OWOD it would make New York 160 vampires. Also, 1 to 100000 is also the number at which vampiric feeding is not obvious to the general public

>>26104822
Yeah but discovery can be mitigated by other factors.

Unless you make up Blood ex machinas there's no real way around a Vampiric Malthusian collapse.

>>26104842
Use mouthwash between feedings. AIDS isn't transmitted by spit.

Feeding off humans is pleb tier in WoD (both editions). They're full of DISGUSTING diseases, you WILL get ambushed by hunters, or provide the TRAGIC IMPETUS to create one, and there's 101 plot hooks in the books about "while feeding on a human... BAD SHIT"

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>>26104536

The best thing about this is that it blows the gloomy gothic suffering of Vampire right out of the water.

Being a ghouls is AWESOME. You're healthy, you can live forever, food tastes better, sex is amazing. The only downside is the blood bond, which is totally avoidable this way.

And even being a vampire isn't nearly as bad. You're a respected citizen, who provides a valuable service! You wake up every morning with three people in your waiting room, reading magazines and politely waiting to give you their blood. If you prefer a certain taste in your blood, mention it on your facebook page; it's considered polite to check your vitae supplier's preferences two days before and eat accordingly. Mmm, Thai food blood.

>>26104804
You should see that time I tried to calculated the age of a goddess based on a complex formula derived from plot details, mythological sources ,sociology and archeometeorology

>>26104933
>Unless you make up Blood ex machinas there's no real way around a Vampiric Malthusian collapse.

Other way around, the world has almost unlimited blood but its hard to get it without MASQUERADE BREACH

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>>26104934
>Feeding off humans is pleb tier in WoD
I beg to differ.

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>>26104957
So it's basically being on V?

>>26104957
Getting to there is kind of... challenging, though. But yeah. Good idea.

>>26104990
How can the blood be unlimited when Humans arent?

>>26104957
Being a ghoul is terrible, you can't relate to anyone, you have an addiction that you will do ANYTHING to sate, and if you kick the habit you die. Its like being a heroin junky for eternity-no thanks.

Being a vampire is worse, NOTHING COMPARES TO THE BLOOD. All other addictions, interactions, or pleasures of your former life are even remotely as satiating as blood. In OWOD and NWOD blood is essentially a vampires solution to all desire everything, hunger, lust, emotional validation are all satiated by blood.

>>26104964
Do tell.

>>26104934

>AIDS isn't transmitted by spit.

Not unless you jab said spit directly into a vein, no. So...

And feeding off random humans you meet in bars and alleys is pleb tier. Feeding off animals is eating-out-of-the-dumpster tier. For god's sake, get yourself a proper food supply: a nice little territory, a healthy herd of humans liberally spiced with ghouls, who you monitor and protect.

>>26105033

The humans are only limited when you consider STUPIDLY MASSIVE hordes of vampires.

1 vamp/500 mortals is the absolute upper limit on how many people 1 vamp needs. Do you really need a setting with more than 120 million vampires? FUCK, THATS A LOT OF VAMPIRES

Plus, mythical vamps could feed on cattle etc., why not these ones?

I love vampires, but if I start thinking about them in real-life terms, I wonder how they'd get blood out of people's necks using elongated canines. It just doesn't seem like a very good way for them to feed.

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>>26105108
>Do you really need a setting with more than 120 million vampires? FUCK, THATS A LOT OF VAMPIRES

>>26105022

True Blood is basically ripped directly from WoD. So, yes. A little less druggy and hallucinogenic, though.

>>26105055
A while ago I had a character concept for Thrud, the last goddess. The last survivor of Ragnarok and a superhero. I assumed Ragnarok was about 1500 years ago due to me conflating the Extreme weather events of 535–536 to fimbulwinter. I then wanted her to be an adoloescent when Ragnarok happened both to fit the superhero origin motiff and to make her canon mythological marriage proposals less squicky. I then needed to set a relative age of what she would be now and then formulate a god to human aging ratio.

I basically set up all the interrelated variables on a slider and tweaked on or the other until I coudl find a balance for the god aging ratio, her relative age at Raganrok, and her age now. I pondered over mytholgy books, social studies, astrophysics (using the average of a a human nation and comparing that to the age of the God's civilization based on the agricultural revolution and the postulated Indo-European Urhemaiet eras via conflating the fall of the Titans with the proposed Gimbutas model of Old Europe's invasion) until someone basically said "Just maker her 3000 now and 1500 then, 100 year ratio"

I was like "no that wont work"

four days of autism later

"Oh yeah that makes total sense!"

Sperging is a hell of a drug.

I sperged SO HARD on it util one guy just intiuvy said "Just use one hundred,

>>26105108
Going by the above formula, (and all the other Vampire Popultion Dyamics that for some reason have been done more than once) any number of Vampires would cause either there extinction or the end of all life on Earth unless you compose some totally INSANE low vampire fertility rates or send out a hella lot of Vampires.

I think some old timey guy actually disproved Vamires existing with basic logarithms back before we even HAD an internet.

>>26105122
Scrape and lick.

>>26105200
True Blood is more like some weird hybrid of Buffy and Supernatural.

>>26105317
>A bunch of people disproved Vampires with math

Wait! SO what about these guys:


http://vampirewebsite.net/

(First FUCKING result for "Vampire" in google.

From Night's Black Agents:
How many vampires are there? In general, the more powerful the vampire, the fewer of them there should be, just for narrative purposes. As an absolute hard upper limit, a stable predator-prey ratio (assuming that virtually all missing persons and unsolved murders are actually vampire killings) equates to 1 vampire per 2,000 humans: about 4,000 vampires in London. A more likely upper limit derives from predator behavior patterns; assuming vampires hunt like wolves, an urban area (rich hunting ground) supports 1 vampire per 60 sq km: about 40 vampires in London.

>>26104536
>>26104636
Vampire/Ghoul generation ship?

>>26103983
>ways to get blood through "magic" means (Coil of Blood, feeding off spirits, etc.).
The third tier in the Coil of Blood allows two vampires with the coil to feed of each other indefinitely, but its not an option for safe and sound immortality. (If I recall they refer to it as a Hungarian Marriage in the Ordo Dracul book).

>>26105034

>Being a ghoul is terrible, you can't relate to anyone, you have an addiction that you will do ANYTHING to sate, and if you kick the habit you die. Its like being a heroin junky for eternity-no thanks.

Some points:

Being a ghoul is frequently described as feeling awesome. The downside is the blood bond, which is avoidable.

The "you can't relate to anyone" thing is nonsense, especially in a situation where most people are ghouls and its considered perfectly normal.

You do not die if you go off the juice, that's just incorrect. You do start aging again, and if you're older than a human could naturally live, you start aging quickly. So... it only causes a problem if you've already lived much longer with it than you would have without it.

The "willing to do anything" bit never comes up, because all you HAVE to do is show up to get your monthly dose. One dose a month is not a debilitating addiction. It's a medication. One that makes you immortal.


You're free to pass if you want, but I'll take a drink a month over getting old and sick and senile and then dying.

Does this account for vampires that can feed without turning or killing the victim?

>>26105255
I love it. I love the attempt to ground mythology in historical fact and speculation, and I love that someone can cut through all the headaches that can involve with a simple, direct suggestion.

We Are the Night has only 100 vampires in the world, with 40 being concentrated in Europe. All the males have been exterminated due to being too greedy and noticeable.

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>>26105357
Checkmate, atheists.

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>>26105511
That sounds just wonderful!

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>>26105357
I'd recommend a watch, it's Sex in the City meets Near Dark with lesbians and an appearance by Lisbeth.

>>26105357
This site teaches me that if you're a ginger with a mood disorder, 9 times out of 10 you are actually a vampire.

>>26105758
meant to link >>26105666

>>26105758
That actually sounds pretty great. The movie, not the odds of mentally disturbed redheads being vampires.

>>26105357
Hmmm think I could go to one of those clubs and successfully convince people I'm Doctor Who?

>>26105758
>Near Dark
I just read the whole plot on Wikipedia.

I have a problem doing that. I havent played a videogame in forever and yet I've wasted hours on their wikis

>>26105871
It really surprised me-I was expecting a much campier, Skinemaxier experience after it was described to me as "lesbian German vampires."

>>26106038
>>26105357
>>26105758
Holy fucking shit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_lifestyle

>>26106065
I know that feel, bro. To help you get into the feel of Near Dark, have some ost to acoompany your wiki experience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-tSoDgxRLk.

Just make it up.

I like Vampires to be rare. There are less than 30 true vampires in the world. There are many more humanoid monsters which feed on blood, which could be called vampires.

>>26105358
>but its not an option for safe and sound immortality.

Yeah it is, just TONS of vampires in close proximity can set off tantrum spirals.

Blood bond is WAY overhyped as a bad thing, when a pair of blood bonded vampires are amongst the most powerful things in the setting. For it to be automatically bad (esp between PCs) you need to engage in such heavy railroading that I've never even -heard- of an ST pulling it off successfully vs PCs.

>>26106214
Blood Bond is bad because it is emotional enslavement, with pretty much everything that entails. Two vampires blood bonded to each other is supposed to be incredibly bad because they should be able to get each other to do incredibly stupid things. I think it needed a stronger mechanical disincentive, but it's supposed to be horrifying in that way.

>>26106065
Watch the movie, it has excellent atmosphere.

>>26106344
Go ahead and add Lost Boys and Fright Night to the required viewing list.

>>26106265
Well, blood bond is one of the advantages of being a vampire, as surely as the huge cults and resurrection and so forth are the benefit of being a mummy, or the power of God Almighty is the benefit of being a mage.

Of course they should use it to the fullest extent; its what you get for being a vampire.

>>26106407
Also the Swedish version of Let the Right One In.

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Hey guys I did a math.
Based on my calculations, a population can't be more than about 0.03% Vampires before people start noticing. I'll explain my reasonings in the next few comments, so people can pick it apart piece by piece.

>>26106602
My absolute population per capita was calculated based on the formula

(POPULATION*0.75)/(56*1.2)

the *0.75 coming from the estimation of people who wouldn't be available. (infants, elderly).

56 days to fully recover a pint of blood.

>-----------------

I figure there can't be more vamps sired than about half the yearly murders in any given place. In the town I'm using (mine) that's about 1.7 (so 1 to 2) per year. I went with the national murder average for simplicity's sake. (0.005% per year)

>>26106602
>>26106656
Next, I wanted to figure out how WEIRD the vampires could be before the kine would start noticing. If the bites don't heal, that's a problem, because eventually everyone's gonna have these weird bite marks. So even if they don't notice the murder rate (or if it's just been like that for a while) there can't be more than about 0.2% Vampire Population before shit goes down.

>>26106602
>>26106656
>>26106694

Lastly, I figure if a sire rate exceeds the acceptable number of new sirings per year, the vampire population gets noticed. So I divided the max sirings per year by the sire rate (1 every ten years). That gave me only about 18 in a town of 70k, about 0.03% of the population.

Fun fact, that's 1 less than the number of people who played in our Vampire Larp last semester, or exactly as many if you include our Malkavian's other personality.

I have no idea on the sire rate though. Anyone have thoughts on how often new vampires are made?

>>26106214
>For it to be automatically bad (esp between PCs) you need to engage in such heavy railroading that I've never even -heard- of an ST pulling it off successfully vs PCs

It is, automatically, bad. If the PCs are not roleplaying it as bad, they are not roleplaying it correctly. This is not something the ST should have to do.

The blood bond makes you fucking insane. Now, naturally, it affects different people in different ways, but the relationship it creates is always, always unhealthy. Infatuated, self-destructive obsession is the bare minimum.

If you can't roleplay insanity without mechanical, dice-based rules for it... if you just ignore any effect that doesn't come with numbers and penalties attached... then you are a bad roleplayer.

>>26106602
I ran the math for noticeability. Twilight Vampires shouldn't be possible, they're too noticeable. BuffyVerse Vamps barely slide in as non-noticeable, but then most of them get dusted rather rapidly thanks to the Slayer and others like her. Being Human vampires should do pretty well. True Blood vamps, ironically, could be prominent and remain unnoticed, as they blend well. (85%)

>>26106602
Why do you assume that number for Vampire drinking. That's totally arbitrary.

>>26106839
Your math makes no sense without base constants. As Vampires are fictional you need to establish ranges for the variables fictional values. And that of course precludes any abilities like mind wiping.

>>26106980
Because I can't find the NHS's database on how much a Vampire Drinks.

Given that Vampires are Fictional.

I went with an average I was comfortable with, although if anyone has a better number please, let me know.

>>26107020
Fair enough. Which still needs to have constants defined?

>>26107077
Well for one how much Vampires drink and also a ratio of attacks to turnings.


Even then you then have to assume your final number as a base value to be modified by any Masquerade enforcing aspects such as The Mist, Mesmers, the MIB and stuff like that. Basically it's a pretty empty calculation compared to the relatively concrete simple population dynamics. You make to many assumptions for your data to be relevent.

>>26107109
Fair enough. How would you advise me to adjust my data? Put Masquerade Enforcing aspects into Blend Factors? Also, I clearly state that Vampires drink 1.2 pints, on average, per night. I figure most would drink 1 pint every two nights, with several drinking 2-3 pints a night in hedonistic joy, causing numerical imbalance. Obviously, this could fluctuate.

>>26105365
>The "willing to do anything" bit never comes up, because all you HAVE to do is show up to get your monthly dose. One dose a month is not a debilitating addiction. It's a medication. One that makes you immortal.
Once a month is enough to stay a ghoul, but it doesn't eliminate the craving. No amount will fully satisfy the craving for long. If a vampire offers you a little extra vitae on the side in return for some "favors" it would be very hard to say no.

>>26107212
How did you come up with those?

At least the 250 pints a month number above was based on how a human diet would be adjusted to blood. Given, it assumes Vampire's have an identical metabolism to humans but it still is better than a number on the random.

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>>26107503
Dear gods, 250 pints a month is like, 8 a night, per vampire. That's an entire person's worth of blood. A vampire would either kill a person a night (noticeability goes up way too high) or hunt and drink 2-8 people per night. If you assume a hunt takes one to two hours or so, Vampires would NEVER NOT BE FEEDING after dark.

In V:tM, a Vampire only needs 1 Blood Point to sustain itself. A Blood Point is about 1 Pint of human blood. I figure most vampires would wake up, hunt someone, drain them a bit, do whatever they do to make them forget, and move on. Some wouldn't succeed in the hunt, or would chose not to. Some would go murderhoboing a bit, 2-4 pints because "Vampires: No Sense of Right and Wrong!", and every month or so there'd probably be a fight, leading to everyone in town needing to resupply. I figure that averages to about 1.2 pints a month.

>>26103983
>They can feed off animals (and having the newest vampires be fed on by the older ones)
This is a pyramid scheme. As the population ages, you'd need to keep bringing in greater and greater numbers of neonates to support the older vampires. Although since it takes about a century to age out of drinking animal blood, it might still last longer than most human societies before falling apart.

It could be interesting to set a game in such a society that's reaching its crisis point. Where they can't possibly increase their numbers fast enough without drawing attention to themselves.

>>26107790
250 pints a month is equal to draining a full human every 60 hours or so. A human can give up a third of there blood without dying so assuming a Vampire wants to go "cruelty free" they would only need to feed every 20 hours.

That's only once per night.

>>26108111
To specify you'd need to drain .411 people a day. that's 0.01712 people per hour which means you'd have to drain a person dry every 58.4 or so hours. Cut that by a third to be "cruelty free" and you have to feed every 19.5 hours. Vampires would eat less frequently than humans. And that assumes only one feeding a night.

>>26107503
>>26107790
Oh sorry I just realized that was a horrid typo.

125 pints a month and 250 humans to a vampire.

My bad.

>>26107790
>If you assume a hunt takes one to two hours or so
Why the hell would it take that long? Earth is crawling with humans.

Walk out, go get one chomp down.

You'd be done in half an hour tops.

>>26108414
You've clearly never tried to stalk down a human walking alone at night in an area where grabbing them wouldn't attract attention while you spend a good bit of time feeding.

To be fair, there are probably Vampires who go out and seduce mortals into joining them, but that can take just as long, if not longer.

But you're right, half an hour sounds a bit more reasonable. Still, if a vampire has to drink 4 pints they're burning 1 to 2 hours getting their fill if they're eating "Cruelty Free"


Unless, you know, they only need a pint a night. Seriously, if you need 4 pints a night you have a terrible metabolism.

>>26108469
If you were made to eat liquidized food you'd need 4 pints as well. The above calculations assume Vampires have equal metabolism to humans. Which given is a bit of a leap, but not as big as one as pulling a random number out of nowhere.

>>26108469
Please, with all the hobos and people heading out late at night it's easy as pie to grab one. Easier still if you have any mental abilities.

And hell, making a deal with a local procurer would be pretty simple as well.

>>26108551
...a local procurer who has 36 people available, on rotation?

Well vampire populace doesn't need to be huge, there's 7 Billion people on this planet. I'd say 7 million are vampires. That's 1:1000 ratio.

>>26108566
You'd just need a different girl a night, in fact, feeding exclusively on hookers would be a good way to go unnoticed as well. Long as you dont kill them. The cross makes you wait 16 weeks but blood fills up a lot faster than that

>>26108631
That seems way higher than it should be without anyone noticing. I mean, I think the planet could support that, but that's a fuck ton of Vampires.

>>26103103
Of course, if you really had only 12.200 humans per vampire, that would result in a lot of weird cases at the local doctor.
Ideally, you want vampire-related casualties to not even register as a spike on statistics.
A ratio around 1 vampire per million humans would make the mascarade very easy to hold.
Even if the feeding was lethal, it would still barely be above 1% of the total amount of deaths.
If it is not lethal, it might not even register at all among the criminality rates.
The only real problem is if you have buffy-like vampires, where every victim rise as a new vamp.
It can quickly become epidemic...

>>26108810
>>26108818
>>26108818
As I keep saying whether they are noticed or not can be defined by the rules of magic in your setting.

Population dynamic, on the otherhand, are immutable.

>>26108810
People tend to not believe what they don't want to believe. They're mostly holed up in major cities where there's ton of "weird' going on so no one notices. The tri-state area could easily house 1 million vamps comfortably without anyone discovering their secret.

>>26108944
>People tend to not believe what they don't want to believe.

If you've got so many that you've got significant statistical effects, it doesn't matter whether people believe or not.

>>26109021
This.

There's a point where it goes from "business as usual" to "Oh there's a lot of crazy out there" to "Holy shit, please not me tonight please not me tonight..."

Basically, a baseline of 1 death per 100 people per year is a good average.
And out of these, not more than 2 to 4% should be from injuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate

>>26109084
That's one thing that annoyed me with the edgy shit they did with sabbat clanbooks. If the sabbat was as savage as claimed, it would be noticeable as hell.

>>26103029
>Do the vampires need to kill their victims to feed?
This is the only portion not covered by the formula

>>26105122
I remember someone speculating that they might have veins in their fangs

>>26107250
That's actually a pretty good description of what might happen. We forgot that people donn't always follow the rules. After a couple of years there will be many ghouls with their own masters who wage war against each other on behalf of their immortal masters. The city will spiral into chaos and this little experiment would be over

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I want to thank everybody in this thread who put some thought into this. I love this kind of stuff, but I'm lousy at math.

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>>26111711
I like that. The blood is sucked straight into the fang.

>>26111776
I would run with the assumption that it's been tried, covertly, multiple times in history (and keeps getting tried), with that result. That might be the secret explanation behind a few riots, revolutions, and other spasms of mass violence.