I threw some lines to test it.

The blue lines are 9 VS 9 on all three scales.
The red lines are 3 VS 6 and 6 VS 3 on all three scales.

bumping for interest

IT'S INTERESTING, BUT UNLESS YOU HAVE MECHANICS THAT INTERACT WITH THE ACTUAL LADDER ASPECT, IT MIGHT NOT BE THE BEST WAY TO GO, CONVENIENCE WISE.

PLUS, IN THE CASE OF COMBAT, YOU'RE DOUBLY REWARDING THE PERSON WITH THE HIGHER STAT (ASSUMING IT'S OPPOSED ROLLS), BECAUSE NOT ONLY DOES HE GET A LOWER TN TO HIT HIS OPPONENT, BUT HIS OPPONENT GETS A HIGHER TN TO HIT HIM BACK.

THIS ISN'T BAD, IF YOU'VE TAKEN IT INTO ACCOUNT, BUT IT CAN MAKE EVEN SMALL (APPARENT) DIFFERENCES IN SKILL HAVE MUCH LARGER EFFECTS THAN YOU'D EXPECT.

Is this an elaborate troll?

>>17376879

no, silly.

Rage has a point. I like the idea, and it can make things easier, but it might need some rebalancing.

How about instead of it being a line it's slightly curved?

>>17376878
Yeah, that's the idea.

See, every time you pit equal forces the dice will be 10, so, 50/50 chance.

Every time you pit unequal forces, then obviously the dice will favor whoever is stronger.

>>17376878
Try pitting 22 vs 19.
This is a fucking beauty, OP.

>>17376889
I see there is already some scaling going on, though. The number near the 10 are more tightly together than the numbers near the 1 or near the 20.

I think this makes it so that every underdog has a chance, even against something significantly superior?

Interesting.

A 5 vs 10 needs to roll 15 or more. That's 75% probability of losing.

It's the same probability as 3 vs 6, or 8 vs 16, or 12 vs 24.

And when you flip it, a 10 vs 5 is 5 or more, so that's 75% probability of winning. And it scales to all other proportions too.

Hmm.

>>17376912

Yes, that's true... Eh, maybe lately I've a bit of a "stuff needs to be more difficult/harder" mindset. This is balanced decently enough I suppose.

And if anything this is certainly a good basis for GMs to build on, personalizing and altering the chart as they require for their games, playing with the scaling to up the challenge.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to try to figure out a way to apply this system mathematically.

A 10 on a d20 (assuming higher is better) is a 55% chance, not 50%.

I can't be bothered, but this is /tg/ so someone might:

Rather than a bizarre diagram, anyone want to figure out the maths of how this actually works? I suspect I can do algebra faster than I can get my chart and ruler out.

OP here

>>17376933
You are 100% correct, sir.

>>17376949
If you find a math formula I would be greatly interested to find out!

>>17376963
You are correct. Damn dice has no zero.

Thanks for all the feedback so far, everyone.

>>17376991
OP here. I suspect a formula exists, but I honestly don't know. I simply drew the minimum dice line then proportioned it evenly, then double-checked with this test here: >>17376855 I know it's weird to use geometry, but it's decently fast once you get your ruler out.

I don't really have anything substantial to say, but it would be a pity to let it sink.

>>17377008

The big problem I see is just the time and complication issue. Check both numbers, get the chart, get the ruler, check the result, roll the dice.

Normally you can divvy the work up between people. GM checks the difficulty, player figures out what he has to roll to succeed.

you only have to pull the chart and ruler out once and leave it on the table, after that you just move the ruler a few inches. why are people acting like it's a massive undertaking?

>>17377030
Maybe it would help if I show you the character sheet. Here it is.

In my experience, speaking just for me, it's about 5 seconds to tell the player what to roll. Just slide the ruler on the left, slide on the right, done. Anyway, just me.

>>17377041
this.

>>17377041
Because apparently /tg/ can't into simple math/ruler movement.

So you need to break out the chart & ruler for every dice roll? That sounds exceedingly tedious.

You also need one person to know both scores, and unless you want to burn the GM out, it has to be the players. This means that in every conflict, players get to know the exact stat level of their opponent.

>>17377041
Because assuming the numbers are changing with each player's turn, then everyone is constantly readjusting the table before rolling their dice. It may not sound like much but if you're doing it every turn it adds up. Which is not to say that it can't be done, but if you're going to add an extra step in resolution like that you need a good reason for it, otherwise you're pointlessly slowing the game down.

That being said, I don't see anyone "acting like it's a massive undertaking" here.

>>17377041
Because even a small increase in tediousness in the *core mechanic* of a game has a huge impact. If it was the lockpicking system or something I wouldn't mind so much.

>>17377063
>So you need to break out the chart & ruler for every dice roll?

Dude, just leave them on the table.

>You also need one person to know both scores

Not OP, but when I DM I have a notebook in front of me with everyone's scores. It's not a big deal. More importantly, my players will DEMAND to know what the opponent score is. This system is pretty fucking transparent on the DM. The players could really keep me honest, with this thing.

For a lot of results you have to round by eye to get a number.

This is a really bad idea. I do not enjoy arguing about dicerolls.

>>17377072
> then everyone is constantly readjusting the table before rolling their dice

what? no.

Lol. Just leave the chart in front of the GM, he pushes his little ruler and tells you what to roll.

>>17377030
>Normally you can divvy the work up between people. GM checks the difficulty, player figures out what he has to roll to succeed.

Hah, reminds me of teaching new players.
"No, don't tell me what you've rolled or what you're ability score is. I don't give a shit. Just tell me if it worked."

>>17377084
Then the GM has to do all the work, when he's already the busiest person on the table, and he has to move his ruler for every single roll.

>>17377081
>More importantly, my players will DEMAND to know what the opponent score is. This system is pretty fucking transparent on the DM. The players could really keep me honest, with this thing.

Wow. That sounds like a horrible way to GM.

>>17377076
>>17377072
>>17377063

OP here. This is how I do it: >>17377084 I just have this on the table in front of me, and I talk as I move the ruler, as in "Okay Joe, your STR is 6 [slide], and you're up against James with 9 [slide] so give me a 13 [he rolls]". It's literally like that.

>>17377082
I would never use this if you had to eyeball it, man. The little lines do help telling apart one dice roll from another.

Anyway, it's cool. I just wanted to share this.

>>17377098
I disagree. As a player, I want to make sure I'm not being fucked over with numbers the GM is pulling out of his ass right that very moment.

I'm >>17377104

>>17377099
>"Okay Joe, your STR is 6 [slide], and you're up against James with 9 [slide] so give me a 13 [he rolls]"

You are doing it right, OP.

>>17377053
this character sheet is fucking awesome. I like the concept of Cores averaging into Surfaces.

ITT: old people resisting change.

>>17377099
>I would never use this if you had to eyeball it, man. The little lines do help telling apart one dice roll from another.

8 vs 10 = almost 12
8 vs 11 = 12 and a bit

What do I roll for here?

>>17377125
Change is only good if it brings improvement or some other advantage.

>>17377126
12

>>17377099
Yes, that's how I imagined it, with the addition of a first step.

>Joe, what was your STR again?" (Or check notebook.)
>*slide*
>My NPC's Strength is 9
>*slide*
>*check result*
>Joe, what did you roll? Ok, you succeed.

Contrast with, say, the D20/4e way:
>My NPC's AC is 13
>Joe, what did you roll? Ok, you succeed.

>>17376994
If you find a math formula I would be greatly interested to find out!
The fact that you don't know what it might be doesn't speak too well of your chances to balance things.

I would also suggest a regular table instead to make it easier to read. Not to mention just plain possible to read without a ruler or such.

I'm thinking there's no easy way to do this mathematically. you can work with quadratic functions, certainly, but it's already quite the job figuring out the formula for the line between the two vertical scales, and then finding X where it connects to the ladder is just more work.

The chart is about as easy as it would get, without involving a programmable calculator.

>>17377126
OP here. 12.
When in doubt you can simply confirm by using a different scale, but honestly, 12 is not that much of a close call to me. Again, that's just me. I'm not saying this is awesome guys. I'm just sharing what I use, that's all. I appreciate all the feedback.

>>17377120
Thanks. I use Soul and Body as HP, then Life as the "final HP". Basically Life damage is serious and requires medical attention, while Soul and Body damage it's storywise just bruises and scrapes (or "fleshwounds" if you're dealing with bullets) and it's easily healed. Life damage is serious business, with crippled limbs, internal bleeding, etc (or PTSD, hallucinations, etc if it's mental/psychic damage)

>>17377157
>The fact that you don't know what it might be doesn't speak too well of your chances to balance things.

OP here.

For me, balance means the following:

* When you oppose your equal, you should have a 50/50 chance.
* When you oppose someone better, your chances should reduce proportionally, and viceversa.

That's all I was aiming for.

>>17377143
I honestly don't know the D20/4e system, so please consider this as an honest question, not trying to be argumentative. When you say:

>>My NPC's AC is 13
>Joe, what did you roll? Ok, you succeed.

How do you account for Joe being really bad or really good?

>d20

I don't know why everyone is being negative here. This is the first honest-to-god *new* thing I've seen in tabletop rpgs in a long while. OP, keep going. What's this "Enter The Shadowside" thing. Tell more.

This is neat. What is this?

>>17377185
>How do you account for Joe being really bad or really good?

Joe rolls d20+his total attack bonus.

>>17377229
Hey, thanks!

Well, I just tried to write down everything I like about RPGs. I grew up in a place where we didn't have a whole lot of them, but the little I did have was very treasured.

Enter the Shadowside is about paranormal stuff. Instead of spells you enter in Hierogamy with spiritual entities.

There's a post in reddit that people liked yesterday, hold on....

>>17377248
here http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/nv1sr/what_are_your_thoughts_about_this/

>>17377241
OP here. What if instead of hitting someone, the action was about vaulting over a tall wall. Is there a "vaulting over wall" bonus, just like there is an "attack bonus"?

Again, just because it's hard to convey tone online: I genuinely don't know. I'm not asking to "make a point".

>>17377185
Bonuses. Coincidentally d20 and similar tend to scales in the same way you implied to be the goal for your system.

Specifically looking at the M&M variant of d20.
Character with attack X has a 55% chance of hitting someone with defence X (however if you change a >= to a > in the conflict resolution this changes to 50%). These chances are modified by 5% for every 1 point of difference in attack/defence.

It's also much easier to handle in game.

>>17377257
OP, I would "upvote" you but I don't have an account there.

>>17377185
>I honestly don't know the D20/4e system
The core mechanic is 1d20+bonus vs difficulty.
To attack, the player rolls 1d20 + attack bonus (Strength + skill level + magic stuff + various miscellaneous bonuses) and tells the result to the GM. The GM checks if it's superior or equal to the opponent's Armor Class (a static number). If yes, the attack hits.

>For me, balance means the following:
>* When you oppose your equal, you should have a 50/50 chance.
>* When you oppose someone better, your chances should reduce proportionally, and viceversa.

It's not that simple. Take D20 and Fate for example. Both fit your criteria.

* In D20, chances of success increase linearly with skill: a +1 will always increase your odds by 5%.
* But Fate isn't linear at all: a +1 can make anywhere from 1% to 24% change.

As you can imagine, they're dramatically different both in design and at the table. In D20, you can distribute small bonuses like candy and have things like the iconic "+1 sword". In Fate, bonuses come mostly from spending Fate points, a very limited resource that you have to spend at the right moment for maximum utility.

>>17377267
Many variants of the system cover those under skills. So yes, there usually is a "vaulting over fence" bonus.

>>17377200
Whatever else may be said about D20, its core mechanic is a really good design.

>>17377287
no need to upvote, that's an old post. thanks for the sentiment though.

>>17377286
Okay, I understand this. But do you need a different kind of bonus for every different kind of action? Similar to what I asked here: >>17377267

>>17377267
Then the player rolls 1d20 + Jump skill (+ misc) and the DM compares to a flat difficulty of his choosing. The rulebook gives rules or guidelines for how hard various actions are.

>>17377296
+1 only is 5% if you're +-10 of your target. Else, it's 0.

>>17377311
It depends on specific system variant.
And the sort of role.
Some variants have for example very broad skills.
Other have very specific skills.
And there are many other things that factor in.
Like base attributes.

Usually it's pretty much like what you have in your opening post: Attribute (base trait) + Skill or something else (more specific trait) + misc bonuses from very specific stuff or items.

>>17377296
>>17377297

I see. Okay, I won't say this is my final opinion since I still feel ignorant. But it seems this system has a lot of skills, and it seems those skills are composed of a lot of factors.

So, if I understand correctly:

D20: dice + (some particular skill out of a list that has to match the given difficulty, that is made up of several factors) vs difficulty

vs

This thing: Might (which is composed of the same factors each time) vs difficulty (which is also composed of the same factors)

Obviously I'm biased, but one thing I like about the second one is that it doesn't require a list of particular skills to match particular actions. It can be anything vs anything.

Anyway, thank you for explaining this to me.

>>17377319
-2/-20 actually, unless I misunderstand you. If you have a +18 base and you must beat a difficulty of 20, that +1 will still be relevant. Same if you have a +0 base. But that's a bit of a technicality since it almost never comes up in actual play.

I plotted the graph you get if Y is the roll you have to make and X is (your number/enemy number).

It takes a very sharp dive from twenty, and as it gets closer to ten it flats out. Meaning that the strongest enemies are nigh impossible, but there's a sharp increase in difficulty by even a single level on their end. But I doubt this will be an issue if your players reach a higher level, unless they're level 20 and you decide to throw a level 100 creature at them...

Pretty decent level scaling if you ask me.

I've played D20 before, now I play oWoD.

OP's system is way simpler.

In my opinion, having to keep in mind things such as
>+1 only is 5% if you're +-10 of your target. Else, it's 0.
= more complex.

>>17377364
Do you have that in google docs or anything like that? As I mentioned earlier, I simply drew the graph bunching the numbers near 10 and spacing the numbers near 0 and 20, because I wanted to achieve that effect, and my only way to confirm it was trial and error, but I would love to see your graph if you have it?

>>17377346

You have it a bit backwards, actually. In d20, the player's bonuses are generally set down before hand. There's little chance a fighter's bonus to hit or a rogue's acrobatics will change over the course of an adventure, barring magic items. The difficulty is what changes, and usually the DM figures that out on the fly.

>Dickass the thief wants to balance on a railing that is wet with rain.
>DM: Base score 15, lets make it 20 for the rain. Roll.

I like your system though. It seems like an interesting change.

>>17377355
is pretty good confirmation of
>>17377365

I'm out for lunch bitches, but good job OP. You are not a faggot today.

>>17377365
Nah, not more complex, it's just that they still don't have any chance [or 5% chance, if you have that] to hit if they're moving +0 to +1 when the opposition is 30 DC

>>17377346
That's true, but it's because D20 goes into a lot of details (caring about equipment, level, magic, cover, various special attacks...) while your system is more rules-light. If we put them at the same level of complexity, D20 would be "1d20+Might vs Defense" (where Defense would probably be Dexterity+10).

>>17377382

I did it on paper, sorry.

But if you want to make one yourself it's pretty easy. Just make a basic X/Y graph, put the right numbers in the right spots, and then use 1/10, 1/2, 1/1, 2/1, and 10/1 as guide points. You should be able to draw the curve from there on out.

>>17377365
Well yes, like I said OP's game is rules-light while D20 and WoD are anything but. But the core mechanic of D20 is slightly faster.

>>17377387
Thanks. And yes, I 100% admit I haven't played DnD in over 10 years.

>Dickass the thief wants to balance on a railing that is wet with rain.

I would rule it like this:

AGI of Thief (say, 6) plus Acrobatics skill if he has it (another 4) vs Difficulty of staying on railing that is wet with rain: 15. 10 vs 15 = give me a roll of 13 or better.

>>17377419
OP here: I'll take it, man. That's a good enough opinion for me.

>>17377407
Gotcha! I'll actually do that, thanks.

>>17377365
Also, the "+1 is only 5% if" is not a rule you have to know, it's just a consequence of those rules (one that almost never happens). You're not supposed to learn by heart the odds of the game you're playing. Which is a good thing because OP's game has rather non-obvious odds.

>>17377420

So skills give static bonuses? If I were Dickass, and I had Acrobatic, would that skill improve over time or would my agility score improve?

this is you, right OP?
http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/nwd75/enter_the_shadowside_a_d20_ruling_sheet/

Everyone upvote this shit.
A little gift from /tg/

>>17377459
>So skills give static bonuses? If I were Dickass, and I had Acrobatic, would that skill improve over time or would my agility score improve?

Take a look at the character sheet over here: >>17377053

The way it works is that at the end of each session, the StoryHost rewards you with 1 point to invest anywhere you want, whether Traits or Skills. So you could choose which to improve. Obviously, Traits are a better investment since they can be used for a wider variety of situations. On the other hand, certain skills such as "Pyromancy" cannot be emulated with Traits alone.

So yeah, you grow your character how you want, but basically yes, Might is the sum of your Trait, plus any skill you may have, plus any item you may have, plus any bonus the StoryHost may want to give you, vs Difficulty.

When you're opposing another character, chances are Difficulty is exactly the other guy's Might, composed of the same elements (trait, skill, item, bonus).

>>17377469
Hey, thanks man!
Appreciated!

The numbers you use are the ones closer to the center, right? The ones going from 1 to 30. What are the outer numbers for? (The ones going from 1 to 20 and from 1 to 10.)

>>17377514
Wait nevermind I got it. Sorry about that.

>>17377514

I think it's for numbers that only go from 1 to 10 and such.

>>17377469
I spit upon you, cur.

>>17377534
Right, you can pit any number from 1 to 30 against any other number from 1 to 30.

If both numbers you're pitting against are under 10, then it's easier to put the ruler of the 10-scale, with the biggest numbers. Then there's the 20-scale, and the smallest is the 30-scale.

Actually, if you had crazy big numbers, say, 245 vs 178, you could simply divide proportionately and it would still work. It would be 24 vs 17, and the minimum dice to roll is the same.

>>17377536
fuck off. everyone from reddit uses 4chan and many times vice versa.
anyway this is about the OP's work which deserves to be seen. upvoted.

>>17377469
I clicked the little arrow and it turned blue. amidoinitright?

just kidding, I upvoted.

>>17377575

Well, if OP makes the graph that I figured out, it ought be much easier and much smaller, and as long as you can figure out the proportion you can use it for any range of numbers.

I just wish I could figure out the formula for that curve.

What happens if the opposing characters both succeed on their rolls?

>>17377604
You and I both, man.
But I figured everybody owns a D20, so that's what I set the scale at. Also, since "Mights" are composed of various factors added together, I figured a range of 1 to 30 would cover most bases.

We'll see though. The games need to be playtested. I expect things to change.

>>17377613
Only one of them actually rolls. It doesn't matter who.

A 5 vs a 10 has the same chances of success as a 10 vs a 5 has of failure.

So really, anyone could "do the honors". Just one roll is needed.

>>17377634
I like this.

The more I hear the more I'm getting interested.

Trying to plot the graph. Small doubt: the difficulty diagonal goes from 1 to 21, right? Not 0 to 20?

Also, I occasionally agree with >>17377082: some results are very close to x.5, and that's when using a computer to draw perfectly straight lines on a perfectly flat chart.

>>17377653
Thanks man.

I don't really feel sure of whether or not I got something valuable. We'll see, I guess. Reddit's /r/rpg usually has good advice. If it turns out people sort of like it, I'll post the rulebook. If people like that too (I'm not getting my hopes up) then I'll ask for help from at least seven people to write small books about the seven organizations in the game. I want one person in charge of all the lore, and deciding what is canon for each organization. History, characters, paranormal skills, etc.

We'll see. Crossing my fingers.

>>17377667
should be 0 to 20, but notice how it skews south a little bit. One way to make sure it's coming along right is by checking that equal values always cross right at the middle, at 10.

Thanks for building this, man, I'm very interested to see how it turns out!

As for the line crossing being vague, all I could suggest is use a larger scale. That works for me, I dunno :)

>>17377677
I like writing stuff. I'd throw my hat in the ring to help you with that.

>>17377701

I went with a scale from 1 to 100 (multiplying the x axis by 10) for my initial attempt, because of all the fractions.

>>17377712
hey, thanks! email me at blacksmith at fableforge dot org

What sort of stuff do you like to write?

>>17377721
Sounds cool. If all checks out, then the output for 3 vs 6 should be the same as 30 vs 60; about 75% of the way of whichever dice are you using, d20 or d100, or anything else.

>>17377729
I've written some campaigns for oWoD games I run. I love paranormal shit. I've sent you an email.

OP, your character sheet is awesome.

This thing >>17377053

Fucking wow.

>>17377677
I would love a rulebook. This seems like a very fun system and the hints you're giving as to the fluff are tantalizing to say the least.

>>17377701
On a 0-20 scale it looks more like 9 to me, unless I'm doing something terribly wrong. Even 8 for 1 vs 1, although that's probably because of all the wiggling (which looks cool but makes everything that much harder).

>>17377787
>>17377781

Thanks guys. I'm almost done with the rulebook... I even paid an artist to make character art, you know?

Here, why the hell not.

I'll post some logos and some characters.

These are the logos of each organization. It's page 9 of the rulebook.

>>17377803
yeah, lol, I may have to get rid of the wiggling.

I think your scale is one unit off, sorry if this is because of something I said, but basically you placed the numbers on the diagonal right on the dividing lines. I think the numbers should be placed in the middle between the lines, at least it's clearer to me that way.

What I mean, since I think I'm not being clear: notice how in yours they are crossing right on the 10. But you placed the number 10 in green in bottom of the two lines. 10 should be the whole block.

This is Fujin's Blood. Egoistic Neutral.

Not sure how the PNG transparency is gonna mess things though. Let's see.

>>17377896
Got it. Still makes the 1v1 a clear 8.5 though...

I'll try to plot more values for a graph after dinner.

yeah, the PNG messes things kinda bad. Ah well, just click on it, it opens in a new tab and it looks okay.

This Diabolus Malleos.

Neutral Orderly.

>>17377916
Thanks dude.

And yeah, Mights of 1 or 2 are kinda hard to follow, I concede :) Then again, if all you have is 1 you're pretty much fucked unless you roll a 20 anyway :)

This is La Somosa.

Anarchic Neutral

>>17377941
>>17377906
>>17377925
I'm trying not to like this but fuck. OP, you're winning me over man.

This is the Sisterhood of Salem, aka "Big Sis".

Altruistic Neutral

>>17377956
don't stop. Post moar.

Greater Thelema Society

True Neutral (although I actually think they're assholes)

Accelletrix

Egoistic Orderly

And SCaV3NG3R

Anarchic Altruistic.

That's it, /tg/. That's the thing.

If there's interest, I can post the rulebook in a few days when it's finished.

>>17377906
>>17377925
>>17377941
>>17377956
>>17377996
>>17378018
>>17378031

not gonna lie to you OP, I would pay money for this shit in hardcover.

I'm certainly interested.

>>17378031
There is definite interest on my part. I would love to see more of this. Thank you, OP.

Thinking this over OP, Why not have the swap both Min. dice roll and Difficulty's position?
This would make the table/chart left to right, with the result on the right. To me it seems like a more reasonable way to view a chart. It would mean that the diagonal line would be turned into 20/30 dots with the number inside.

>>17378051
If you want to help the OP upvote his reddit thang. Right now: http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/nwd75/enter_the_shadowside_a_d20_ruling_sheet/

OP, I want in. Tell me what do you need. I'm a graphic designer, and sometimes technical writer.

>>17377864
I like how the logos get more scribbly the further down you go from orderly to anarchic

also, that little pacman ghost is actually kind of creepy. good job.

>>17378097
>>17378076
>>17378054
>>17378052
>>17378051

Wow. You guys are awesome. Thanks! I was feeling on the fence a while ago, but I think I should go through with this thing.

>>17378076
Email me. [email protected] and I really appreciate the reddit votes, I know reddit is not popular round these parts, but it's actually a good source of feedback and I need to find writers to help me out writing the canon for each of these organizations.

captcha: excitement deltilo

>>17378059
mind = blown

I have to try it. I don't even know if its possible. But holy shit, I like the idea. Will try.

>>17378131
>find writers to help me out writing the canon for each of these organizations.

what do you have so far? just the logos and pictures?

>>17378148
I have the descriptions, and the paranormal abilities of each.

Do you really want to see them? I don't want to spam.

>>17378131
No, OP. YOU are awesome. I always like seeing neat, new things in RPGs, and this is even neater than it is new (and it hasn't even come out yet, so it's pretty bloody new). I can't wait to see the finished project and, more importantly, I can't wait to play it with my friends.

>>17378162
Bro, it's your thread about your project. Can't spam it if you're staying on-topic. Hereabout in chan territory, we call it 'dumping,' like an infodump. I'll be monitoring this thread for at least the rest of the day, and I want to read and look at everything you're willing to dump.

>>17378163
Wow.
Shit, this made me smile. Thanks man....!


.. you like writing stuff?

>>17378171
Heh, alright, what the hell. Forgive the typos and stuff cuz this is a draft.

Here we go:

>>17378182
But that I could! I have uni on my mind and can't spare the time to work on any projects. I will be playing it, though, when it's out.

11/23

>>17378211
Good enough for me, man. Whatever feedback you can give me from actually playing it is worth a hundred hours of me assuming.

12/23

>>17378213
>>17378205
aaaaand that's it. archive this fucking thread.

13/23

14/23

A bit unintuitive, but interesting. Running the numbers now.

>>17377864
Why is it that there aren't any LG or CE organizations?

so how's this about you needing help from writers, then? Say, I want to write about Fujin's Blood. Do I just email you?

>>17378255
>Why is it that there aren't any LG or CE organizations?

Didn't get any interesting-enough ideas for them. I thought it'd be better to have 7 really solid groups, rather than 9 with two of them so-so. But if anyone has ideas, go for it.

I imagine Egoistic Anarchic is basically a pack of rabid dogs. And Altruistic Orderly feels like it could be too goody-goody, not sure.

>>17378257
Yeah, email me! I don't know how I will choose if I have more than one person wanting to write for the same organization.... that would be a great problem to have, though.

15/23

Holy shit these factions are baller as fuck.

16/23

>>17378205
tell you one thing OP: it takes balls to link the Yakuza to Hiroshima.

>>17378293
fucking this

>>17378205
This is all very cool stuff. I'd drop all but that first drop cap though. It looks funny when every paragraph has one.

>>17378302
heh, I hope no one gets offended in RL and comes after me.

But if anyone will, I suspect it will be the ultra christians due to Malleus, or perhaps some ultra liberals due to Somosa.

Hah. Makes it fun.


(I don't know why it's not posting. I'm getting a blank page)

>>17377053
Very cool character sheet. Very stylish and it organizes the stats a hell of a lot better than a table.

>>17378324
Duly noted! I'll change it in the draft after I finish this dump.

fuck, it's not letting me post page 17. wth

>>17378359
Try posting the page after it and coming back to it later.

>>17378349
Thanks! yeah, every Trait should have it's reason to be.

Let's see if it lets me post the page-o-traits:

>>17378359
My first thought when I saw the initials was that there would be some secret message hidden in them. So how about you don't remove them, but encode something in them? It'd fit with the game's theme, right?

Other than that, the idea is fresh, the setting is awesome and you should feel good. Looking forward to seeing more.

>>17378302
Dog days...

>>17378372
I posted page 6.

Let's see: 17/23

>>17378339

RL Thelemite here. I don't give a fuck - I think it's pretty cool that Thelema found its way into your game.

Whatever you paid for the art, it was worth it. Fluff seems solid as well. You're on your way to a damn good product.

But please don't get too attached to the core mechanic. The more I try to puzzle it out, the less I like it. Like I showed in >>17377296, the hard truth is that for any system, you must calculate the odds of your dice rolls in order to design balanced extra mechanics. Different odds for the core dice roll can mean very different requirements for things like skill bonuses or magic buffs/debuffs (which I see your game already contains). And with your system, the odds, while proportional, vary wildly and unpredictably depending on the Might and difficulty. This is a very bad sign.

>>17378387
hehehe, it would go with the theme indeed! Yeah, I'll try to get creative and spell something out with the dropcaps.

Thanks man..... I really needed this little push to finish up. Glad I came here.

18/23

>>17378404
I meant no offense dude! Actually, I'm posting the Greater Thelema Stuff here, and the previous page. Let me know if somebody will come look for me in the middle of the night.

19/23

Adding onto what >>17378408, said just testing simple factors ( 12 might vs 6 difficulty, 8vs4, etc ) they do intersect , but most of the time not on the line. If you were to truly want to get a function for this you would need to graph this three dimensionally with every possible combination.

>>17378454
I think you misunderstand the way the mechanic works. It does have precision issues but not the kind you're talking about. You only draw one line and check where it intersects with the diagonal.

>>17378450
please continue posting your stuff, it's awesome

>>17378408
I claim credit for the logos, but yeah, the character art was money well spent. Glad you like it.

As for the mechanics, here's where I stand: if people who playtest this for say, 3 or 4 sessions, tell me that something sucks, that something goes no matter how much I'm in love of it. If the answer is that we have to use tables like everybody else, well, damn, I guess we will. But I want to give this Jacob's Ladder a shot.

I'm getting white pages error again. Still trying to post page 20..

20/23

>>17378487
I think it was my connection. I'm using a hotspot from my cellphone.
21/23

>>17378478
While you are right about a single use, if a function is to be determined using the might/difficulty ratio then all ratios must intersect the same point. That or graphing all the possible outcomes and generating an equation from that.

22/23

inb4 shitstorm in /x/ over this organization, hehe

23/23

and ... that's the thing.
I have more pages in the rulebook... mechanics and character creation, but I think I'll save those for the PDF. You guys made me feel really encouraged here.

this
thread
must
be
archived

>>17378546
any suggestions for a description?

So... if you've read these organizations, I would like to ask you something, as a favor.

A sort of informal poll.

Which organization would you choose for you?
Which one do you think your best friend would choose?
Do you have a girlfriend or boyfriend? which one would he/she choose?

Like I said, just a poll. I'd like to get an idea of what people like.

>>17378546
"Enter The Shadowside". I haven't felt this way since I first saw the clans of Vamp the Masq in highschool. Not even kidding.

>>17378564
Me, Big Sis.
My roommate, Somosa
My ex, either Accelletrix or Malleus

>>17378580
I'm >>17378076
If you haven't upvoted the reddit thing, do it. OP fucking deserves it.

>>17378564

I'm Fujin's Blood, fuck yeah.
My bro would probably be Fujin too.
I don't have a GF, my sis would probably be Thelema

>>17378508
Oh right, my bad. Yeah, we'll need a 3d graph or 30 pages of charts. There may be a symmetry somewhere though, but I haven't puzzle out where.

>>17378564
I'm an /x/phile, so I'm torn between Scavenger and Thelema. Btw, you really should post in /x/ about this, I think they would like it.
My best friend is an /x/phile too, so same answer.
My girlfriend would be Big Sis for sure. Peace and Love.

>>17378580
> I haven't felt this way since I first saw the clans of Vamp the Masq in highschool.

Best compliment ever. Thank you man.

>>17378595
There are two actually, and the other has actual explanations.

www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/nv1sr/what_are_your_thoughts_about_this/

http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/nwd75/enter_the_shadowside_a_d20_ruling_sheet/

>>17378633
vote the second one. the first one was yesterday, but yes, I'm reading through all the comments there.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/17376824/
...and done.

Saved for future viewing.

>>17378629
You're welcome. So, when are you posting the rulebook? It'll be on the website, right?

Holy shit this is awesome.

I want to play a game of this NOW.

>>17378633
Why are there no Altruistic-Orderly and Egoistic-Anarchic organizations?
Egoistic-Anarchic probably wouldn't create an organization but Altruistic-Orderly could.

>>17378663
It will. Next week... I'll work on it all weekend, polishing stuff, hunting typos. It'll be there.

>>17378647
Hey, thanks!

>>17378666
Yeah, honestly I didn't think of anything interesting enough for those two extremes. I agree with you something Altruistic-Orderly could exist (I would say Malleus thinks that's what they are). I think it's a challenge to make True Goody-Good Paladins interesting. If anyone's up for it though, ideas are welcome!

>>17378665
Internet brofist for you. Care to answer my little poll here? >>17378564

>>17378693
> If anyone's up for it though, ideas are welcome!

I'm up for it. I'm up for all sorts of things related to this shit. Fuck, I want to play this bad.

>>17378709
Thanks man. Email me your ideas!

>>17378564
>>17378693
Myself: Big Sis, most likely
Best friend: Scav3ng3r
Boyfriend: Diabolos Malleus

That being said, I imagine I'd first want to try playing someone from Greater Thelema or La Samosa.

I like how different all the rituals are for hierogamy.
they all feel well in character for each faction, the somosa with wild voodoo parties, the thelema with classical ritual stuff, the fujin's is bad ass, proper for assasins.

me, I would play Malleus. I always play Paladins.

Scavenger reminds me a lot of John Constantine. That power, Presto, is fucking awesome.

I would be a scavenger, my girlfriend would be one of Fujin's Blood, and my best friend would be an Accelatrix Agent. Maybe I need to rethink who I'm friends with.

>>17378693
Due to those guys being altruistic and orderly to the max they would probably have some kind of protect-the-world-from-the-other-organizations-and-the-shadowside theme.
They could be divided in "rings", to ascend to the next "ring" a member must prove his worthiness to the other members.
This could be something like rescuing innocents from a GTS gone insane.

I hope that this is useful to you.

>>17378777
>>17378772
yeah, hehe, John Constantine (at least the Ennis version, fuck Azzarello) was a big influence. Scavenger is meant to live by the edge of his pants, but that organization is the only one that is truly free.

I like this, I like modern settings with silly magic and supernatural stuff

Hot damn this is awesome. If you're looking for someone to write for pretty much any of these factions, general setting fluff, or hell, anything, I'd love to help.

>>17378788
This makes sense. Fujin's are Yakuza, Malleus are the Priests/Paladins, Somosa is ghetto/voodoo, Big Sis is Wicca/Gypsies/Weres, Thelema are Rich Old Cultists, Accelletrix is Corporate Bastards and Mad Science and Scavenger is rogues and punks. Something like that... I need a stereotype.

The idea of rescuing innocents from GTS rituals is very good. They have The Damascus Working where they literally make themselves stronger when screwing over others.

>>17378789
Except for the forever alones who are not at all free...

>>17378814
I will take you up on that!

My plan is to publish the rulebook sometime next week, and then I'm hoping to get at least one writer per faction. That way we have one person making all the decisions about what is canon about that faction, what is its history, its agenda, characters, etc. So I'll need at least seven people chipping in. I think it could be really cool if we end up with seven "clanbooks" for lack of a better term.

>>17378835
scavenger is /x/'s wet dream

>>17378832

SO either the Thelema or the Accelletrix would fit the King/Lord archetype uh

Still a tough choice since Savenger sounds cool too

>>17378851
This is succeeding a lot more than you expected, isn't it?

Still grinding down the math. A question about your assumptions: on average, how often should a skilled character succeed on a "normal" difficulty check? 85%? 95%?

Also, you really should pick a name if not a trip.

>>17378868
Same question for every difficulty level actually.

>>17378864
Heh, yeah, they all think they're the best. Malleus thinks they're on a mission from God, as in literally, the God of the Bible wants them to kick ass.

Thelema laughs at that, they want to build a New World Order where superiors lord over inferiors, like Aristotle once described (or was it Plato?)

Accelletrix is actually making money and, (closest to reality I think), realizes the way to power is through money and commercial interests.

tl;dr: they all think they're the best and everyone else is wrong. Heh

>>17378832
The altruistic guys could be monks or something similar, only attacking when necessary, like saving others.
They could use non-lethal-force to fight when needed, so that they dont kill someone.
But they would need some way to survive against the other organizations.

>>17378866
Yes. I really feel grateful to you guys for giving me fuel here. I don't think the reddit post will get all that hot unfortunately, but this thread is what I needed. thank you.

>>17378868

The way I see, we only roll dice when there's a realistic chance of failure. So, for example, while driving a car is average, I wouldn't even call for dice to see if you crash or not. If you're doing 80mph on the rain and snow and are being chased by three accelletrix hummers, then yeah, that calls for a roll. So "Normal" really means "Normal for an adventure". In which case the answer is: I would expect regular people to get it right about half the time. The difficulty letters on the right of the sheet are mapped to the 30-scale, and assume that a normal might will be around 4 or 5 due to adding skills or items.

>>17378939
Yeah, that could maybe work. Originally I had two ... seeds of a thought, really, one was on the religious side (monks as you said) but it was too close to Malleus, and the other was like S.H.I.E.L.D. in the Marvel universe, or the Men In Black, or the organization that Hellboy works for, but that was too close to Accelletrix.

I don't know, I wish there was a stereotype that was clearly different from everyone else.

>>17378851
Not to harp on about it, but I would love to write for any of them, they're all an awesome take on the core ideas. And in answer to your earlier poll, I'd probably be Scavenger, my best friend would be Big Sis, and my girlfriend'd probably be Thelema.

>much Muestro
Ah. Yes Captcha, many teachers.

If you were to make an LG faction, I think their numbers should be very few and they should be very strictly moral sorts with paladin-styled powers. Smiting, damage resistance, healing, that sort. When I say very few, though, I mean that in a given city you'll see, on average, one master and one apprentice. More in the world's biggest metropoli, but a paladin/jedi/baller style group would be very interesting. As for their pseudohistorical origins, well, I've got nothing. Sikhs, maybe?

>>17378868
>>17378947

I forgot to add: once you enter in hierogamy then the spirit who lives with you actually adds to your traits and skills. So average Mights for player characters (as opposed to ordinary joe-citizen NPCs) could be around the low teens.

This is the page about Hierogamy, I still need to search-replace Hye into Hie though.

>>17379007
thanks man, it's really awesome to hear this. I have no idea what I'll do if I get more than one person interested per faction, but whatever happens I do know I won't turn any help down.

Btw, the poll tells me that Fujin seems to be least chosen group. Interesting, since they're mostly killing machines. Hmm.

>>17379025
I love this idea of the Jedi Master/Padawan. Extremely few in number... just a pair to a city. I really like this seed. Maybe that's the stereotype I was looking for. Jedi. Maybe that's it.....

>>17379028
I have the weirdest boner

>>17379078
Maybe a postmodern faction like the scavengers (I'll write it without the leet speak just because I don't remember which letters were replaced and don't feel like looking it up). They might have a philosophy taken from bits and pieces of lots of things, from Christianity to Buddhism to actual Star Wars movies. Of course, I doubt they would call themselves Jedi. That would be going way too far.

How is belief determined, how is it regained usually, and what's a decent min, max, and average amount?

>>17379078
Maybe these "Jedis" have always known of the Shadowside, passing their knowledge generation after generation just one master to one apprentice, carefully choosing when to intervene, wary of all of the other groups's weakness and flaws, above them really, in their altruism and morals....

>>17379116
A faction that has ancient origins but, as it keeps incorporating ideals from new sources throughout history, it's become a mishmash of idealism with hardly any true tie to its origins anymore.

>>17378985
Hmm, so we need a good archetype thats not a religious one or a secret agency one.
Maybe they could be average joes which fight for the "greater good". Just people from everywhere who want to do good stuff.

>>17379104
Right, we wouldn't call them Jedi of course, but I kinda like the archetype.
I like these ideas: >>17379116

(btw, I also type scavenger all the time, leet speak is hard. The idea is that it was a tripcode in /x/, where the name came from)

Belief Points is similar to Mana in other games.

In other games, if you want a small fireball, you invest 10 mana. If you want a really big fireball, you invest 50 mana.

Belief Points are like that. Every time you roll the dice, belief points are at stake. If you succeed, you win some, if you lose, you lose some.

The "fluff" behind it is as follows: the Shadowside is a realm of mental and spiritual energies. Whatever you believe to be true becomes true. You can manifest things in there, either by being sure they are there, or by being really afraid they are there (which is the same thing as being sure). So everytime you try something risky (roll dice) and win, your faith in yourself and your own abilities increases. And when you fail it decreases.

Belief Points have a secondary use: if you needed to roll 20 or better, and you rolled a 15 (first of all you lose a certain amount of Belief Points right there, just for failing, but) you can choose to spend 5 Belief Points and turn the 15 into a 20. It won't give you any new Belief Points as if you had won that roll naturally, and it won't give you back the amount you lost, nor the amount you spent. But storywise, it will make you succeed that role. So, Belief Points can modify Fate, to some degree.

Maybe Fate could be somehow the core Tenet of this new Jedi faction...

>>17379170
ack, apologize for the weird spelling, "role" instead of "roll", etc. I guess my brain is starting to give up.

I should probably leave the office now. But before I go, holy shit, did you guys take that reddit link from 10th to second place right now? Wow.

>>17379150
>>17379130
I'm really loving the idea of there being just very few of them, just a master and an apprentice per city.

What if this faction is THE shadowside faction? In other words, they are not humans trying to reach in into the shadowside, they are shadowside entities, powerful entities, call them angels or demons, actually reaching back into the human world??

That's our stereotype. They're spirits. Pure ghosts, or angels, or demons, or saints. They're in-human. That makes them different from every other faction (and explains how they can be both Altruistic and Orderly)..

aye?

>>17379204
>>17379170
/tg/ gets shit done, bro. I like the constantly fluctuating Belief idea. I also like the fate concept for the jedi faction, maybe throw in some prophecy and some magic relating to buffs derived from perfectly-timing perfectly-precise actions. They would actually be able to deflect bullets with swords - not because they can actually deflect bullets with swords, but because, via Fate manipulation, they swing their sword through where the bullet is going to be. They swing wildly with the baseball bat but, by letting Fate guide their hand, slam a home run.

>>17379233
I like the idea of an Apprentice getting bonded to his Master's Master - when a Master dies, he waits around until his old Apprentice, now a Master in his own right, gets and Apprentice of his own. Of course, since some Masters would have many apprentices in a lifetime, most apprentices are actually bonded to their Master's Master's Master's Master's Master, and so on. There would be a hard limit on the number of living jedi equal to the number of deceased Masters, but I expect that limit would never actually be reached, considering how small their numbers tend to be.

>>17379240
this is gold.
They're like... Neo, now. They know the Matrix.

Maybe this is the only faction that doesn't actually need Hierogamy, maybe they just go whole-hog into the spirit world and interact with our own through Faith alone.

There is no fucking spoon.

Okay..... okay, look, I gotta leave while I'm winning.

I'll take the train and see if I can log back in later tonight from home. /tg/ is FUCKING AWESOME, let that be written there, for the record.

See ya guys around!

>>17379233
I dunno, I love the fact that so far this is really a human focused game, and I'm not sure taking away from that'd be an enhancement.

For the Egotistic Anarchic faction, cult of personality. Pyramid scheme down from one very charismatic madman, ala Ladd Russo from Baccano and his band of similarly deranged followers. There doesn't seem to be space for the psychotic in most of the other factions, with the possible exception of the Somosa, although I suppose any given person could break from the stress of Hierogamy.

>>17379298
Or they enter into heirogamy with themselves like the oroborus. After all, people can become bondable spirits when they die. Maybe they bond with their own Anima. You should look into tulpas and thought forms for them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus

/tg/ at times like this I'm proud of you.

Clearly, our mission is to make this game the next Vamp the Masq.

This looks like a coolest RPG that no one will ever play. The practice of sliding a ruler around and looking at a graph every single time you want to do anything gives me nightmares of original D&D. It could only work for a highly narrative game with a low crunch factor so you're not plotting lines on a graph every five to ten seconds.

The concept is at least new and interesting though, I'll give you that.

>>17376824
What if you cut slits by the numbers and ran a piece of paper through them like this?

>>17379635
It might be good to make a little board pieces like that with little slidey knobs and a small cord of elastic.

>>17379421
I actually printed it out, because fuck ink cartridges.
I have to say this shit is easily as fast as WoD, and that's pretty fucking fast.
I will play this, and my group. Guaranteed.

Could this be used to run Shaman King?

>>17379674
> elastic
It will not stay put.
I still think the ruler is best, maybe with slits like he said here:>>17379635

>>17379736
It seems it can run anything where you have one value opposing another and need conflict resolution on a D20.
Kinda impressive, really.

>>17379769

I'm talking more in the terms of the Hierogamy rules

>>17379736
Yes.

>>17379782
That I don't know. It seems they come down to "you hear voices in your head". Interesting that the GM controls the spirit in hierogamy with you... Could lead to interesting interactions.

i don't know how to post tonight . .

>>17379823
You, sir, are a blessing for my poor printer.

- Who'd you get for the art? It looks familiar.

- What about rounding? There don't seem to be any readily apparent situations where a fraction would be something other than X.5, but if there are some it wouldn't hurt to establish a global rule for it.

- For effects based on Belief Point totals (e.g., "Servitor") is it possible to intentionally underpower it? For example, if you wanted a servitor that's basically just a mannequin, could it be created as though you had 2 BP?

>>17379702
And speaking of printing, it'd help a lot to have printer-friendly versions of the resolution ladder and character sheet somewhere. Back of the book, maybe.

Ok. I've read all the skills. This is Really Well Thought Out. No organization is overpowered. Just when you think one skill is hands down better than another, you realize there is a drawback, and everything comes back down to strategy.

Really, I gotta give it up for the OP here.

and the char sheet

>>17379877
I think the OP is gone, but in the Reddit thread he said he would include printer friendly versions.

About Servitors, I thought that too: its a perfect "illusion" power even when it has no belief points.

>>17379953
http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/nwd75/enter_the_shadowside_a_d20_ruling_sheet/
OP is taking about us.

>>17379912
Perfect. I'd have to make up a few mechanics, but practically I'm set. I could try this with my group tomorrow.

>>17379976
I like the OP. I found this about him in the other thread it. Read it, /tg/
http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/kvo2e/do_you_play_rpgs_as_a_way_to_create_fiction_or_as/c2nohpc

>>17380249
That was kinda moving.
OP is a faggot, but a cool faggot, like Freddy Mercury.

Did a little work on Excel. It turns out the math works okay, though not great.

Easy difficulty isn't worth rolling, it's automatic success.

At normal, the odds of success are 55% for a regular dude (with +7), 75% for an average PC (with +12) and 80% for an exceptionally skilled PC (with +15).

At difficult, the odds are 30% (dude), 45% (PC) and 60% (skilled PC).

At very difficult, the odds are 25% (dude), 40% (PC) and 45% (skilled PC).

Raw data and comments in next post.

>>17380539
Some of those numbers are damn difficult to know for sure, there's often a 1 error margin. Difficulty 15 for example (corresponding to the Might 15 of a skilled PC) gave me no end of trouble. This will be obnoxious at the gaming table with less accurate measurements. There's also the risk of confusing scales, especially with the 1-20 one - which is unfortunate because that's the most commonly used one.

The trick to switch Might and Difficulty usually works, but not always; again a 1 error margin. You'll notice the occasional break of symmetry.

The typical PC skill level comes at the point where the curve starts to flatten. Small penalties have basically the same effect as in D20, but small bonuses have little to no effect. This is even more true for small changes in difficulty. When a particularly skilled PC meets a particularly hard challenge, it's barely worth adding any modifier, which is a bad thing. Things get more exciting at low skill level and low difficulty, but that shouldn't happen very often.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/q1uzm3o1z5dtqpt/Shadowside odds.xlsx

>>17380555
Oh and disregard the 4 crazy numbers in the corner, those are for a check I made (how often a +1 to Might or Difficulty is relevant).

>>17380555
Also, because of the flattening of the curve and the breadth of the d20, even ridiculously high difficulties can be beaten by a regular PC 25% of the time, and even insanely powerful beings still fail one in five hard checks. This is also a problem.

>>17380539
I like those odds, if you're correct. It means the underdog always has a shot, however small, and the gods are always fallible. This is good.

Also, why do you say bonuses don't matter at high levels? How do you know the bonuses don't keep scaling at the same pace as the traits?

If might is made up of trait, skill, and item

then

dude: 3 + 3 + 3 = 9 or 3 + 3 =6
PC: 5 + 5 + 5 = 15 or 5 + 5 =10
Uber: 8 + 8 + 8 = 24 or 8 + 8 = 16

Now match a dude vs an Uber, at best is a 9 vs 16, which is 14 or more in the D20 or a chance of 26%ish? at worst is a 6 vs 24 which is 18 on the D20.

So when you say here >>17380604
>even ridiculously high difficulties can be beaten by a regular PC 25% of the time

I don't think so.

If you have a 3, pretty much every difficulty between 20 and 30 and requires you to roll a natural 20.

tl;dr I think the scaling is pretty decent. Most games have you scale by using different sets of dice, this manages to do it all in the D20 rather elegantly.

>>17380539
>Easy difficulty isn't worth rolling, it's automatic success

it's the same at the other end of the spectrum. This thing is symetrical.

If you have a might of 30 you can beat two thirds of all difficulties rolling a 7 or better.

>>17380555
these odds look pretty good. thanks for putting them in a spread sheet.
but yeah, I like the odds here.

>>17380539
>At very difficult, the odds are 25% (dude), 40% (PC) and 45% (skilled PC).

So, very difficult is like 19 on the 30 scale, right?

if dude is 6 (3 trait and 3 item or skill) that's 17 or better

if PC is 10 (5 trait and 5 item or skill) that's 14 or better

if uber is 16 (8 trait and 8 item or skill) that's 11 or better

I think this is okay. It makes the differences noticeable, but not so much that anyone gets too comfortable.

>>17380539
>>17380677
>>17380783

It's easy to find out what's a "dude" what's a "pc" and what's an "uber". Just look at the left of the left column.

1-10 it's humanity
11-20 it's hierogamy
21-30 it's divinity

those are the ranges for NPCs, PCs and UberNPCs.

also in the right column,
Heroic is two spots: 30 and 29
Nearly impossible three spots, 28, 27 and 26
and so on, Extremely Difficult is 4 spots, Very Difficult is 5 spots, etc.

>>17380677
>I like those odds, if you're correct. It means the underdog always has a shot, however small, and the gods are always fallible. This is good.
I agree, but to a certain extend. In D&D, the feeble wizard can beat a half-orc barbarian at arm-wrestling 25% of the time. 25% is not underdog odds, it's a fair shot.

Under the Enter The Shadowside rules, he would have the same odds when arm-wrestling the draconic avatar of the god of Strength.


For my estimations, I used OP's answers in >>17378947 and >>17379028. Regular dude succeeds on a normal roll about half the time which translates to 6-7 (I picked +7). That makes sense with a 1-5 stat and the occasional skill/item bonus. PCs are in the lower teen, I picked +12. I assumed a specialized PC (with a 5-6 stat, +2-3 from skill and some bonus from items and/or hyerogamy) could reach +15.

>I don't think so. If you have a 3, pretty much every difficulty between 20 and 30 and requires you to roll a natural 20.
I'm talking of a regular *PC*, so 12 or so. That dude could beat a 30 difficulty by rolling a 16+.

>>17380783
I'm using OP's values again, those that are on the chard (which may have to be changed). Currently, easy is marked at around 2, normal around 7, difficult around 14, very difficult around 19, extremely difficult around 24, "nearly impossible" (ahem) around 27 and "heroic" at 30. It's labelled in comments on the excel sheet.

At very difficult, the curve is already flat enough that the difference between (my assumption of) a regular PC and a specialized one becomes small.

>>17380875

One thing I noticed about this system is that if you roll a 20 you always win.

I think this is good. There is always the Proverbial Chance, nothing is 100% hopeless. I like this.

The probabilities "compress" around the extremes so that you always have a shot. Look, this is what I mean:

Dude (12) vs Double Dude (24) = 15 or better.
Dude (12) vs Double Double Dude (48) = 6 vs 24 = 18 or better
Dude (12) vs Double Double Double Dude (96) = 6 vs 48 = 3 vs 24 = natural 20

So no matter how gigantic is the challenge, you Always Have A Shot.

This is fucking awesome as a player, if you ask me.

This system is cool and all, but it looks like a pain in the ass... You should put little notch marks for each intersection, and also post those pics from earlier in proper print font, none of your fancy woman writing.

>>17381044
>You should put little notch marks for each intersection
Not sure I understand you. There are 900 possible intersections, and that's if you only use the finest scale.

>>17381044
I don't get what you're saying. I printed it, and I've been running sample things. It's easier than it seems, specially if you leave the ruler there (use a transparent ruler, also).

See in this pic also: >>17380539 you can tell where each green line is crossing.

Maybe I'm biased towards novelty, but, yeah, I like this.

>>17380980
I don't think I've seen that in other systems. Not that I know a lot of them. But it seems in Enter The Shadowside nothing is "Impossible".

I approve.

>>17381137
>See in this pic also: >>17380539 you can tell where each green line is crossing.
Unfortunately that's... not always the case, to say the least. And that's using a computer, with perfectly straight lines on a perfectly flat chart.

>>17381240
well, sure, I don't actually have tables or rulers that aren't "perfectly straight". That's what rulers and tables *are*.

I think it comes down to personality. Judging from all the work you've done, you're obviously someone who's very much into details. Me, this is good enough for me.

I've been thinking about what could fill the Anarchic Egoistic gap, and the basic idea I've got is some kind of might makes right, rule of the strong type group that relies on raw strength, fear and terror to achieve its goals. The general aim of the group (if an anarchic, egoistic group actually can have an aim as such) is to make humanity evolve, or at the very least advance beyond its current state. They are, essentially, the giant boot up the ass they thing humanity needs.

>>17381460
Maybe they could be the opposite of the "Jedi"s they were talking about earlier.

Still few in number, still Master & Apprentice, still "above" the fray as far as the rest of the organizations go, but utterly and completely evil in the "tough love" way you've just described?

>>17381480
>Altruistic Orderly
Angels
>Egoistic Anarchic
Demons

>>17381480

Possibly, I was thinking more individualistic though. I also had this idea that, due to the manifestations of their powers, they keep getting compared to demons, which they decided to run with because, despite its lack of veracity, it made people fear them more. It could be interesting to make their abilities reflect each other to a degree, given that the "Jedis" seem to be more about manipulating the Fate of others, whereas I thought the Anarchic Egoistic group would rely far more on strengthening themselves (so materialising weapons or altering their appearance so that others will fear them).

>>17381548
if the Fate Jedis are about things spiritual and immaterial, then these guys, should be all about flesh and things you can touch.

if op wants to keep things human, then cool I guess, but I just had this vision almost out of Hellgate London, where on one hand you have these relatively small figures, spiritual, and glowing, on the other you have giant beasts that only want to eat and fuck and shit and tear things down. now that's orderly vs anarchic.

>>17381579
Maybe that is the main conflict in the setting. The fight between these two polar opposites that is only resulting in tearing the world down. All the other organizations are caught in the crossfire.

>>17381599
that's a bit of a stretch, from these factions not existing, to them being the pivot points of the world. interesting concept, though.

>>17381599
if the world is being torn down it means the anarchic egoistic guys are winning, no?

I'd like to see a balance a bit more original than "save the world" vs "destroy the world". Something more nuanced. Maybe it's in the categories themselves "Help others" vs "Help yourself"

>>17381460

I like this idea, a faction composed of people making themselves the villains the world needs in order to get it's act together and having a great time doing it.
Being the joker in order to force the appearance of a few batmen.

>>17381669
>Being the joker in order to force the appearance of a few batmen
I like the way you put it.

>>17380249

>>17381669
>>17381704
>Being the joker in order to force the appearance of a few batmen

It's an interesting take on it, though I imagine the goal is to make more than just a few Batmen appear. The fear and terror thing is less to make people bow down to them, but rather to toughen people up and face their own fears, especially given that the idea I had for their hierogamy ritual partially involves the applicant facing their own fears.

The hierogamy ritual has 3 parts: Fear, Combat, and Blood, however hierogamy itself could occur at any time once the trials begin; should this occur, any trials in progress are ended, and any trials not yet done are skipped, as gaining a connection to the Shadowside is proof of worthiness. The Trial of Fear involves senior members of the group using their powers to subject the applicant to their worst fears and nightmares. Should they survive (relatively) intact, they pass onto the next trial: the Trial of Combat. This basically pits them against other applicants and lower ranked members in 1v1 fights, and they must survive as long as possible. Finally, the Trial of Blood involves dumping the applicant in a large vat of blood and sealing the lid. Either hierogamy occurs, and the applicant breaks their way out of the vat (or evaporates/drinks the blood, or finds some other method to survive) or the applicant dies. Such is life in an organisation that believes in survival of the fittest, even if it means kicking humanity up the ass to ensure their continued survival.

>>17381878
holy shit.
this is pretty brutal.

I kinda like it.

>>17381940

Thanks. I'm trying very hard to stick within the Anarchic Egoistic area without making absolute villains (regardless of whether you could sympathise with them or not). The conclusion I came to was one where they emphasised personal power, with enough of an agenda to actually bind them together enough to form some kind of organisation and hierarchy, even if that hierarchy is based on who's ass they can (and can't) kick.

>>17381995
Reminds me a lot of the sith. Which is to be expected when the opposite archetype are the Jedis.

It seems the OP didn't come back to this thread after all, but you should email him all this. I particularly like the fact that you're not trying to make them "villians", because I get the sense from reading all the other organizations, that everyone has justifications and reasons for doing what they do, so no one really thinks of themselves as the "bad guys" and that's good. That's a more nuanced world, full of greys and not just clear whites and clear blacks.

Anyway, email the OP, his email is here: >>17377729

>>17382029
>because I get the sense from reading all the other organizations, that everyone has justifications and reasons for doing what they do, so no one really thinks of themselves as the "bad guys" and that's good

Yeah I get what you mean, I was definitely trying to give the idea that at worst they think of themselves as a necessary evil (and most of the time they think they've got the right idea and everyone else just needs to be kicked into line).

bump

OP here.

I've been reading the stuff since I'm left... really impressed with a lot of the ideas and analysis.

The ideas of these two new organizations for the top-left and bottom-right corner... very nice.

And the analysis Roxolan did, very thorough. Roxolan, if you're still there, would you recommend shrinking the values in the Minimun Dice Roll towards the center? I don't think that would be good for precision though.

I see also a lot of comments about scaling, my goal is pretty much that the StoryHost can never tell you "no, you don't have a chance". There should always be a chance -this comes from a little personal experience I had as a player for a rather strict GM, long ago.

Anyway, wow. I don't know where to begin.

I'd better hurry my ass up and finish that rulebook. I'll be checking this thread now and then.

>>17383722
OP, the question about Servitor. Can it be cast with something like 2 Belief Points, to serve as a talking mannequin and nothing else?

>>17384007
Right, yes. You can choose how many Belief Points you want to spend, that's entirely up to you. A servitor with Traits of 1 across the board would be really dumb though. Good enough for a sex doll though.

>>17384084
>Good enough for a sex doll though.

it's like you know /tg/

/x/phile here.
Just wanted to express my thanks for making us neckbears feel good about your make-believe ideal world there.

Other /x/phile here, you seem to think we are some sort of non-retard.

>>17384300
>>17384271
Hey, I'm an /x/phile too! I even used to namefag as Forge way back then.

I know scavenger is like three steps through the multiuniverse away from reality but hey, it's game, it's made to make us dream, eh?

Also, I need to figure out what tripcode renders "!#SCaV3NG3R".

>>17383722
>would you recommend shrinking the values in the Minimun Dice Roll towards the center?
I don't understand what you mean.

I think I would recommend using smaller values for both Might and Difficulty so that modifiers are more relevant (and sometimes even better than 5%). I'm still making a few calculations to figure out the best spot. This could be a bit tricky to implement if you're married to the 23 points in character construction, we'll see.

I would also recommend removing either the 1-20 or the 1-30 scale from the sheet. It's confusing, and a lot less useful if Might and Difficulty are lowered.

>>17384300
What am I looking at?

>>17384364
This is Roxolan btw, lost my name in the crash.

>>17384364
Interesting.... so, just the 10-scale alone, and no 20 or 30 scale? Smaler Might and Difficulties?... hmm.... interesting. Why though, what made you think it would be best with smaller values all around?

btw, I might be a slow for the next hour or so, calling my old folks overseas..

>>17384403
Like I said back in >>17380555, when you get to high values, the odd curve flattens. In other words, small changes in Might or Difficulty have little to no effect on how much you need to roll. The difference between a regular PC and a specialized one, or between "difficult" and "nearly impossible", aren't nearly as big as you'd expect.

I'm working on a pic that will make this obvious, will post in a moment.

Seems really good OP, if you publish it i will buy it for sure.

Just a recommendation if i may, concerning Diabolus Malleos herald (or sigil/symbol dunno:P).

In greek, Diabolus is written ΔΙΑΒΟΛΟΣ and the "hammer" in latin should be Malleus, which in greek is "ΣΦΥΡΑ". If you want to keep the greek format write it as "ΔΙΑΒΟΛΟΥ ΣΦΥΡΑ".

Of course no need to change it, it's a cosmetic thing anyways and the game looks really good as it is. Cheers.

>>17381668
Not neccesarily. Ever played the Shivering Isles? Destruction doesn't have to be chaotic, it can just be too perfectly ordered.

>now we come to [The Hobbit], which I hope I live to see

>>17384622

thought I was in /tv/, its Christopher Lee talking about working on the Hobbit, I guess I'll leave the post since its still somewhat relevant.

>>17384547
OP here: Thank You!

I don't know Greek nor Japanese, and Google Translate only goes so far, so this kind of advice is exactly what I needed! I'll make the change!

>>17384459
Looking forward to seeing that pic; I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean.

This post made a lot of sense to me though: >>17380980

I tried to make the changes in min dice proportional to the difference in forces, but at the same time I always wanted everything "possible". This is because as a Player, I had a GM who got fond of telling me that no matter how much I rolled, I would -never- achieve this or that. That rubbed me the wrong way. So yeah.

looking forward to seeing your work, I'll be checking this thread throughout the day until it 404s

http://www.mediafire.com/file/xnkhq0pk3cbtkvp/Shadowside odds.xlsx

>>17385477
OP here, posting from my cell. This looks very good. I will study it when I get back home. Thank you for making this.

>>17385502
One of the benefits is that you can drop the 1-30 scale (and maybe the 1-10 while you're at it to avoid confusions). At difficulty 21+, even an Über PC has worse than even odds. In the exceptional cases where you'd need it, you can break out the Jacob's Ladder math trick.

>>17385549
So basically all you are proposing its making mights and difficulties smaller?
I like the odds in your pic though.

>>17385935
Pretty much. It gets us away from the part of the chart where the odds change too slowly.

OP, which of the suggestions are you most liking the looks of for your Anarchic Egotists and Orderly Altruists?

>>17386603
I'm back home, thanks for not letting this 404 yet!

I like the concept of Jedis vs Sith, to put it in simple terms. I need very clear stereotypes though. If I say "corporate" you instantly know it's Accelletrix, if I say "priest" you instantly know it's Malleos, and so on. We can't really say "Jedi" though. The closest I've seen here was one guy saying "Angels" and "Demons" -those are pretty clear stereotypes... problem with that is that they're not human. But maybe that's okay. Maybe these two concepts really -are- outside the reach of humanity and their antagonism could be the basis for a "hidden war" where the other orgs are caught in favor or against. I wanted to do a "hidden war" theme since the beginning, but I still don't have very clear what the objectives of this war should be. What each side is fighting for, exactly.

I probably should save this for when I can explain it better, but heck, here goes:

(cont)

>>17386948
(cont)

The Shadowside eats Faith, like fuel. Faith powers things in it -you believe something is there, then it is. If enough people believe someone is powerful, then that someone gains power. If enough people believe someone doesn't exist, then that someone loses power. Now think of the history of humanity, think of the Egyptians for instance. Can you imagine how powerful an entity known to us as "Horus" was, back then? Pretty fucking strong. But now look at today, can you imagine how weak Horus's become? He's probably pretty pissed off. Thor is pissed off, and Zeus, and lately, maybe even Jesus. People are starting to put faith in Science, and atheists (like myself) are killing them entirely. Tribal gods in Africa must be dying off every other month. So what do they do? What would you do?

Here's what I would do, if I was fucking Odin: I'd bring about goddamn Ragnarok. The End of Days, the Apocalypse. Sure, it'll kill a lot of believers, but the survivors sure as hell will believe in me again. And I will be powerful again.

That is one side of the war. The other side wants the world to go on, even if it means the doom of the ancient power structures of the Shadowside. They're meant to die if they are meant to die. Fate will be what it will be. These are our Jedis.

Anyway... just sharing some thoughts. It's a haze of an idea, really. I thought I didn't have to worry about it and it wouldn't be needed until much later, maybe this would be the meta-thread that players of the game eventually discover (fat chances of that happening after this post, lol, but whatever, information wants to be free).

Anyway, some thoughts.

>>17386962
still OP here: basically the "bad" guys want the end of this world to save the Shadowside, and the "good" guys want to let this world go on, even if the shadowside dries up slowly and dies. Or, more specifically, even if certain oldfags in the shadowside become irrelevant and die, and the belief system of mortals is such that no new deities may arise.

What I like about this, is that every old religion becomes involved in the bad guys side bringing about whatever version of the apocalypse they believe in. I like this, because fuck religion. What I don't like about this, is that it would alienate religious players and invite controversy into a tabletop rpg, where frankly isn't needed.

So.. yeah.

None of this will be in the rulebook, since I'm so undecided about everything.

>>17386962

>Here's what I would do, if I was fucking Odin: I'd bring about goddamn Ragnarok.

Here's the problem I see with this: if Odin has lost so many followers and has therefore become weak, would he even have the power to bring about Ragnarok?

Actually, come to think of it, Odin dies in Ragnarok anyway. So does, like, every other Norse god, so it's really lose/lose for him anyway.

But the main point stands: if a deity has lost enough followers that bringing about the end of the world (so as to increase the number of people who believe in him) is the only way to regain his power, would he even have enough power in the first place to enact this plan?

I suppose you could get GROUPS of gods, like Odin and Horus and Anansi all decide together to bring about the end of the world, but the problem I see then is that all of them have different ides of what that would entail and they would just end up bickering and backstabbing trying to end the world the way they feel the world should be ended.

>>17386100
>>17385935
Roxolan, I think I like what you are proposing. If I understood you correctly, there is no need to re-draw the Min Dice Roll diagonal, but simply change the rules so that PCs are 6's, and Skilled PCs are 10's and Ubers are 16's. I think this is doable, and if your analysis tells you it would make for a better game, I think I'm willing to go with it.

Let me ask you about this math guy in reddit though. Maybe you can understand what he said, cuz I didn't. I'm not good at Math, but I really respect people who do. I'll copy paste his comment here:

>–]FedoraToppedLurker (_) 3 points 2 hours ago (3|0)
Okay I did some geometry. If you were to make the diagonal scale such that from Might of 0 to Difficulty of 0 is D+2 long, where D is the size of the decision die (20 in this case). Then you get the equation of
(D+2)*(B/(A+B))-1
for the Number to roll, where A is your might and B is the Difficulty. This maintains the property that A=B results in 1/2 * D and the property that iff B=iA for some i then the roll is constant forall A (In yours they almost keep this rule, but there are some off by one due to falling really close to a tickmark). This of course requires that all side scales have their zeros at the intersection of the diagonal scale.
From there we can adjust the centering of the scale to achieve desired results (Note due to the discrete nature of die rolls F(A,B) != D-F(B,A), but is only ever off by 1):
(D+2*S)*(B/(A+B))-S
S = Scaling Factor (Amount of space on ends of diagonal scale)
D = Decision Die Size
A = Might
B = Difficulty

>>17387019
everything you said makes sense, here's what I say back: the "gods" don't believe their own bullshit. That's for us mortals down here. Up there ("out there" rather) they know the legends and myths are mostly made up. So they wouldn't necessarily get all doctrinal about the hows of making humans believe again. They know that if things get shitty enough, people will interpret it as whatever their favorite apocalypse myth is. And that will be good enough for them.

You bring up an excellent point: if they are so weakened, how can they still bring about change over here? The answer is they cannot, not directly. They need agents. They need people in the flesh, but with just enough paranormal power to get shit done. These agents don't need to know the whole enchilada, just enough to do their job of convincing the masses. And that's where the seven organizations come in. Some are agents, some are counter-agents.

Maybe in the Biblical times the gods did actually have enough power to make fire rain from the sky. Now a days, if an agent gets a decent levitation trick going, that's probably as good as it's gonna get.But they're counting on a trickle effect.

>>17387060
>>17386999
>>17386962
>>17386948

>>17387019
I think he's more suggesting that existing followers of the dying gods would begin an apocalypse which bears the symbolism and portents of their chosen deity.

As for the Anarchist Egotists, I'm not sure what to call them in the context that was described. Maybe Cultists or Fanatics. I very much liked the idea presented earlier of, rather than them trying to fuck humanity over, they see themselves as the proverbial Joker, just trying to get a Batman to rise up - people who are going to do evil and enjoy it while 'justifying' it to themselves that they're just trying to get a good guy to finally come out and put them down. From their perspective, they're already doomed - and had probably done something about which they felt terrible before their heirogamy - they're just going to go all out and really enjoy themselves before they meet their fate at the hand of a True Hero. It would be a very fatalistic, pessimistic faction of Villains.

>>17387133
> existing followers of the dying gods would begin an apocalypse which bears the symbolism and portents of their chosen deity

I really like this. The fact that there are so many ways for the world to go according to so many myths really makes for the "anarchic" part of it. And of course, sacrificing this world just to make the other world stronger is quite "egoistic".

The other side of the equation checks out too: letting the shadowside dry up for this dirty world to live another day is pretty "altruistic", and the fact that they're not broken up into different shards of the truth makes them "orderly".

Interesting. Angels against Gods.

For the orderly altruists, I would suggest the concept of the eastern monk, specifically the martial artsy kind - that or crusaders. I would also suggest having them believe in a cycle of reincarnation, where minds in the shadowside that degrade after death are shedding memories and attachments before reincarnation. Have them be big into Buddhism and Taoism and less of the stance of "if the shadowside is doomed then so be it" and more of the stance "the shadowside will endure, even if its gods don't, because humanity always puts its faith in something." That's my view, anyway.

>>17387155
I like aspects of that mentality too; maybe they believe the new world that will rise out of the ashes of this one will be better. Will be worth it. You'd be surprised how many actual religions believe this, Jehova Witnesses for example. They literally await this world to go down in flames, and millions of people to die, and only them will go on to rebuild the earth into a paradise. Of course, they don't go on killer rampages, they expect Jehova to do that for them. But you see the parallels.

>>17387174
>Have them be big into Buddhism and Taoism and less of the stance of "if the shadowside is doomed then so be it" and more of the stance "the shadowside will endure, even if its gods don't, because humanity always puts its faith in something

This is brilliant. And the Eastern Monk is a distinct enough stereotype, actually. It's not like Yakuza and it's not like Malleos. We may have a winrar here...

>>17387155
So they would be the only faction that actually sees themselves as "bad guys?" They sound kind of like the agent in Serenity. The man trying to make a world that will have no place for men like him.

>>17387174
>>17387194
As an atheist, there are aspects I really, really like about Buddhism.

Maybe that is the meta-religion that is above the fray of all the rest.

>>17387213
As an atheist, I prefer Taoism. You'll find it has a lot of neat elements.

I gotta go back to working on the rulebook, but I'll keep checking this thread.

Basically, where my mind is right now is here:

* I wouldn't advertise the religious aspect in the rulebook. It only alienates people and brings controversy. But everything we've discussed about gods being really just old spirits who want to be believed in again... that would be what the characters eventually discover. And at higher levels, you'd probably have to take sides with your choices being "saving a world that is really fucked up" or "destroying a world in hopes of building a better one". Not exactly white and not exactly black.

But yeah, it would all be subtext and implied and indirect... I don't need to get harrassed by the 700 Club, or muslims, etc.

>>17387221
>>17387213
"Eastern Monk" would be the perfect stereotype for this Altruistic-Orderly organization.

I want to play this game right now.

>>17387213
>>17387194
>>17387275

Guy who wrote the initial stuff on the Anarchic Egoistic group here, I personally love the idea of a Eastern Monk/Buddhist/Taoist/"balance in all things" group in the Orderly Altruist spot because it almost perfectly counterbalances what I've done for the Anarchic Egoistic group. To steal an idea from Jade Empire, they are the open palm to the Anarchic Egoistic's closed fist.

>>17388405
I second this, makes perfect sense.
What would be the archetype for the anarchic-egoistic group though?

>>17388525
demons?

>>17387031
Right after new year's eve is not the best time to do math. Will get back to you after I've slept for a century.

Wait, I can see a link between the Joker-esque ideology and the 'old gods' trying to preserve shadowlands. They're Anarchic Egotists, right? The Old Gods have touched them, in their insanity, in their greed, in order to empower them to be able to bring about great catastrophe. It's less of an organization and more of a mob of crazy masterminds and insane berserkers that could and would stab each other's backs.
It's like the old gods see these potential disasters, bound them with an equally insane spirit, and let them loose to the world, hoping that enough of them will cause widespread terror and calamity for other people to believe once more. Their goal is to create something like 9-11, but bigger. Maybe even a nuclear war if they need be.

>>17390082
I like the cut of your jib.
Maybe they're not even an organization, just a collection of deranged bastards here and there. A serial killer here, a Jim Jones there, a rogue general somewhere in africa, a crazy preacher. They have nothing in common but their need to fuck shit up and they don't even know why. They don't even know they're being used.

Shit, man.

>>17390138
Well, they do have -something- in common: they have insane spirits bound to them, whether they know it or not. And it manifests in some certain forms of power unique to these guys. That's the only thing connecting these crazies.

As for the name, I have no idea. 'Spawn of Tiamat'? 'Jormungandr's Brood'? 'End Times Brigade'? 'Madlanders'?

>>17390256
right, they're in hierogamy and don't even know it. they just feel impulses to do destructive things. I hope the OP sees this.

names... I don't know, I think it needs to be something that could apply to any culture. Maybe, since they're so disconnected from each other, they don't even have a name, or every other organization has a different name for them?